Maggie is Dead.

[Talkinpeace]

at last.

Boney, it never occurred to me to check, for I am not one even consider doubting Thatcher's word. But I will see if I can google and find anything on it.

I don't think she was arguing that she achieved more in office, Jack. Your Ad Hominem doesn't contribute anything.

Ad Hominem? You are calling me out for using an ad-hom? Oh Jesus my sides. Have you actually read this thread?

You shouldn't be supporting anyone who praised mass-murdering dictator pinochet and called him a 'democrat' and called Nelson Mandela a 'terrorist'.

Nope you're absolutely right. It's so clear cut when you say it like that isn't it? Thanks for blowing through all the unnecessary debate and getting straight to the nub of the issue.

i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01679/blair_1679384c.jpg
www.hdg.de/lemo/objekte/pict/Nachkriegsjahre_photoGrosseDrei/index.jpg
www.realclearpolitics.com/images/wysiwyg_images/chamberlain-hitler.jpg

Everyone knows that London cabbies are the font of all wisdom

Admittedly he made this speech after Thatcher had left office, but still, she brought him into government...

Interesting article here about Thatcher and Mandela/De Clerk

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/10/margaret-thatcher-apartheid-mandela

Doesn't entirely support the pro-Thatcher viewpoint, but gives some background.

This is from a book by Simon Jenkins called "Thatcher and Sons: A revolution in three Acts"

Thatcher believed in a revolution aimed at a society where class was overwhelmed by the benign equilibrating forces of a free market economy....The modern Marxist historian Eric Hobsbawm understood this better than many Marxists. He cited Thatcher's determination to break with the traditional British ruling class ... The pillars of the British establishment wrote Hobsbawm rightly regarded Thatcherism not as the continuation of the old ways by another means but as a striking and worrying innovation Thatcher described her seizing of power within her party as a shattering blow to the Conservative establishment. I felt no sympathy for them. They had fought me unscrupulously all the way

Now I fully understand what teh London cabbie meant by
"We've never had a good'un since"

She wanted to destroy teh class based system that held back our people and create a meritocracy based on a competitive free market. Our elite didn't like it because they knew they could not compete against our people. Why do you think they all get jobs in charities and think tanks and at publi expense, not many of them can compete against teh working class and middle class PhDs from our universities and former polytechnics or even our further education schools. Come to think of it they can't compete against our best primary school pupils either. That is why they are all now found on 6 figure salaries in charities paid for out of teh public purse.

Sorry

The modern Marxist historian Eric Hobsbawm understood this better than many Marxists

should have been

The modern Marxist historian Eric Hobsbawm understood this better than many Thatcherites

So other than sound bites and a single quote, that would be a no?

Boney, I could write a thesis on it, but sound bites are more appropriate for a forum.

Put some links on and will go read them.

In fact, it was a shame that there weren't more women MPs in the Tory party at that time. Because women were not part of the old boys' cosy network and they would have supported Thatcher against the Tory grandees and wets who fought unscrupulously against her.

There was a fascinating Radio 4 programme about Thatcher the other day by Andrew Neil. He said something to her about change or policy and she said to him "unfortunately Andrew there are not enough people like us".

Her Thatcherite revolution of the middle classes to free our people was hamstrung by these Tory wet grandees who surrounded her. She didn't have enough support to do what she wanted to do and eventually they ganged up and betrayed her.

Thatcher truly was one of us and she made many changes, but in the end they betrayed her and brutally deposed her and the rest is history or tradey.

"We've never had a good'un since"

"unfortunately Andrew there are not enough people like us"

There were not enough of the middle clases at the top. That is what we need to effect real change and to free our working and middle class people and create a dynamic, class-free society of social mobility and opportunity.

We will get there one day. Thatcher started it, but they got rid of her. But there will be future Thatchers, we just have to hope and wait.

MARGARET THATCHER - BSE COLLABORATOR

Such a pity she was not brought to justice for her involvement in the BSE cover-up, the truth about this woman will be revealed, glad she is dead, rest in hell Thatcher.

We have heard how she loved an argument and held her own against every single one of them. Not one of them was her match or her equal. She stood head and shoulders above every single one of them and she dominated the despatch box too.

They don't make em like Thatcher anymore - the grocer's daughter from Grantham showed them and she showed teh whole world. That is why she is a 'towering figure' and a world leader respected by the leaders of every country. She was one woman among 81 men in the summit of world leaders and not one of them could hold a candle to her.

I don't want to derail the thread by going into detail about the recruitment strategy of financial service companies, but I will say that in my experience of their graduate recruitment strategies there is a tendency to concentrate recruitment efforts within a select number of the Russell group. Moreover, when the hr departments of said institutions do use an apparently transparent skills-based assessment procedure, this is hamstrung by the weight they also place on internal work placements (which obviously exclude many students anyway, but that's another issue) which incorporate many dinners and other social occasions as part of an informal assessment procedure. Mangers may not be sporting bowler hats any more, but don't be mistaken, class is very much still in play!

And I have to laugh at the idea that Thatcherism was good for working class people. Laugh.

unami late to this but just wanted to say your 18:34 post was spot on. Thank you

oh claig, Hobsbawm was simply referring to the ability of capitalism to avoid the inevitable self-destruction it's destiny is. Self-promotion is an end-game. Thatcher, in those terms was an agent of that acceleration. We see it today - evermore serious crises, til one day it all goes pffff. But a slow pfff, when co-operation and sanity will eventually prevail.
You heard it here second.

yes that post of Unami was the most sensible one amongst all of the MT threads this week.

She wanted to fight the class based system, actually Claig I don't disagree with you, I think that is exactly what she thought she was doing. She listened to the neo-lib economists at the Institute of Economic Affairs spouting ideas, she seized upon their lies about trickle down economics, free markets and privatisation. She was just a pawn in a much larger game. She was used, she was deceived.

One of the founding members of Mont Pelerin society was Hayek, The society was funded by some of the worlds richest people, the old European oligarchy. The name of the game was to restore their fortunes and shore up their class interests, to overcome progressive taxation, to open up new markets like health and welfare to private investment, to impoverish states, to create greater welfare need because these markets are not "optional" but necessities. These people believed in "small government" because any state that provided welfare could become in their opinion, subject to some form of collectivism (socialism) I think you might even find some parallels with your concerns about green meanies and wind farms.

www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/1997/eirv24n51-19971219/eirv24n51-19971219_043-mont_pelerin_thatcher_and_privat.pdf

These elites that you are so fond of Claig played Maggie!

Her death won't change a thing, there was no such thing as "Thatcherism" just neo-liberalism and the people who this benefits couldn't give a flying fuck about Maggie.

Mini, you are right. Of course she was played. She was only a grocer's daughter from Grantham. You can't get to teh top amongst teh billionaires and trillionaires without being played to some extent.

They are all played and all all puppets to a greater or lesser extent.
But, as Hobsbawm said, this was a challenge to teh British ruling class, and it was a challenge by international capital and finance. It was bout destroying the world of privilege and class and snobbery and unleashing teh dyamic creativity and energy of money-making capitalism. It was epitomised by Harry Enfiel'd plumer "Loadsamoney". It was about the emancipation of teh working and middle classes in a capitalist meritocracy where rewards would accrue to those who were teh best.

Capital does not care about class, it cares about making moeny and for that it needs teh best brains and the best skills. It is capitalism that harnesses teh talent of women and kicks down barriers so that women can compete with men, because capitalism only cares about talent - not colour, class or sex. Capitalism wants to use teh best talent avaolable in order to make money.

I agree witha capitalist society because it is one that provides social mobility and opportunity because it is a meritocracy. I believe in a meritocracy not in a hereditary class system.

Thatcher was cjhosen by Keth Joseph and other people as teh dynamic middle class woman who could sweep away teh old and bring in the new. They spotted her potential and they knew that she had teh guts to carry it out and take on teh establishment.

No sustem is perfect, no leader is perfect and mistakes and scandals are part of every reign, but you have to take teh long view (without partail animus) as Denis Healey did. Taking teh long view, we needed Thatcher to force through change and break the class system.

The elite got rid of her eventually after she made some mistakes, but we need another Thatcher to drive through more change, because the Etonians are back and teh clock seems to have been turned back.

We need more middle classes and more women in power, we need to create a dynamic new enterprise capitalist culture that provides opportunity to all regardless of background.

Mini, now you have stumbled on Larouche. If you don't watch out, you'll be a conspiracy theorist of the highest order soon, once you realise that Marxism is part of the conspiracy!

Rifkind said in parliament
"was she a Conservative?"

She wasn't a Conservative, she was a revolutionary, she was a change agent and she was for capitalism and enterprise and dynamism. That is why teh people loved her, because she was on our side, one of us, who wanted to open up opportunity for us.

Campbell on Newsnight sounds worried that Cameron will gain popularity now.

I think Labour is now finished. The miners talking about celebrating and the anarchists and socialists on the streets spells the end of Labour's chances. The public will eventually lose all sympathy for what they see as bitter people disrespecting our longest serving peacetime leader of the twentieth century.

Labour are yet again on the wrong side of the public and it wil cost them in the next election.

So we'll be a one party state. Oh goody. That always works really well.

I read a lot of things Claig. Marxism.... part of a conspiracy! you have been listening to too many American Loons. Who do you think pays their wages claig? The same people that fund these think tanks.

Go back and listen some more.