Maggie is Dead.

[Talkinpeace]

at last.

This has shown how sadly divided as a nation we are.

While everyone on the right of politics would respect a minute's silence for any past Labour leader, such as Michael Foot, or any Labour politician, all of whom have served our country, it is clear that we cannot have a minute's silence for Thatcher in football matches across the country, because tens of thousands of people will not respect the silence in honour of our longest serving leader of the twentieth century.

The intolerance, the disrespect, the hatred and glee at someone's death is the real face of Britain beneath the mask and it is very sad indeed.

But fortunately it is only the face of a vociferous minority of Britain. The silent majority, as ever, are not like that.

But that's exactly what I said earlier. You are ignoring the fact that not all of those celebrating her death are "Socialist Worker rabble" as you put it, nor are they 20 year old students. There are an awful lot if very ordinary people e.g my friend from the South Wales valleys whose dad lost his job in the mid 80s and went from being a miner to a checkout assistant at Tesco's. This friend is now a successful and respectable solicitor with two children, and he has had a bottle of champagne waiting to be drunk since his wedding ten years ago. A silly gesture you might say, but he is certainly no rabble, nor is he a Socialist Worker.

'A silly gesture you might say, but he is certainly no rabble, nor is he a Socialist Worker.'

Is he a socialist?

Tell me Hester...should I then open a bottle of champagne when Scargill dies as his beliefs and actions were the cause of my husband losing his business, every penny he ever had and having to start all over again, spending many years on the breadline?

Funnily enough I see even the miners have rumbled that self serving old scoundrel Scargill now

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/margaret-thatcher/9982970/Margaret-Thatcher-Scargill-attacked-by-miners-he-once-led.html

Some of the miners are doing themselves, and possibly Labour, great harm as they talk of having a party and celebrating. Because millions of citizens are watching and many never lived through those years.

But to see people who put their "communities" and their "villages" above the nation and who disrespect one of the nation's greatest leaders and talk of celebrating her death, because she did not give in to their demands for state subsidies to keep their "communities" and pits going, will eventually lead to the public losing their support for the miners and giving their support to the rest of the nation who did not receive any state subsidies.

I watched Channel 4 News last and they showed a mining community and an ex-miner saying that he would celebrate and the people in the room were shouting at teh Conservative MP who was there. Then they showed a working class man in Romford, who had worked hard all his life and had never had a state handout to keep his "community" or "village" going, but who was grateful to Thatcher for giving him the opportunity to buy his council home and to have achieved something in life which was to own his own home rather than merely surviving.

That man would have paid rent to live in that same council home for a lifetime. But now he lives in that same home and he is teh proud owner of it, a home that he would have paid for more than once in rents to teh council. That home would never have gone to a new housing claimant because he would have and still does live there.

He didn't strike for state handouts, he didn't demand state handouts and he won't celebrate the death of Thatcher, unlike teh ex-miner.

As the public see more of the people celebrating Thatcher's death with bottles of champagne because she refused to continue subsidising failing industries with money contributed by the man from Romford in order to keep their "communities" going, then the public will begin to lose respect for the people who disrespect Thatcher.

If you read my post properly you would have realised I wasn't condoning or condemning his actions. I was simply showing Claic that the opinion she and those like her seem to hold that those who won't kowtow to Thatcher's memory are a rabble rousing, disrespectful bunch of reds, is misplaced.

Crack open the champagne when Scargill dies by all means. It's none of my business.

Again I'd like to say that many of those praising her fulsomely her aren't actually pointing to specific political achievements but are simply throwing around emotive words like 'service' and 'honour'. And silly words like colossus.

I'd also like to say that singling out certain totemic roles, like mining, is only a very partial rejoinder to a one sided view of MT's career. We could talk, for example, about the failure of her care in the community policy, which increased homelessness and premature deaths enormously, the legacy of which we still deal with today. And then there are the many other industries and communities that suffered under her leadership - and those who were made so suddenly and callously unemployed were treated as if they deserved it. Let's look at the political situation we're in now, because it's clear that what Thatcher managed to do to the working classes - destroy their means of organisation, grind down their attempts to improve their living and working conditions (and then tell them that they lack aspiration), and dismantle pride and autonomy in their work - is what the current Conservative government are trying to do to much of the middle classes. Middle class professionals with good jobs in the public sector - our police, our nurses, our civil servants, our teachers - are suffering a similar assault - to their pay, pensions and professional conditions. It will devastate another class and another generation.

Claig, I have no idea how he votes. I imagine given his background, he is a Labour voter, but the Labour party are hardly "socialists" nowadays. He might vote Plaid, I don't know.

But surely you're not implying that if someone doesn't vote Conservative, their opinion can be discounted?

Crack open the champagne when Scargill dies by all means. It's none of my business.'

We won't crack open the champagne when Scargill dies, because we respect Scargill just as we respect Thatcher. Scargill fought for his beliefs and Thatcher stood up for hers.

They were both political figures who played a part in the political life of this country. They are both historical figures who deserve respect.

Excellent post Unami . I wish I had the patience and stamina to write that!

'But surely you're not implying that if someone doesn't vote Conservative, their opinion can be discounted?'

Certainly not. But if an adult cracks open a bottle of champagne to celebrate the death of the country's longest serving peacetime leader then I feel that is shameful.

'Again I'd like to say that many of those praising her fulsomely her aren't actually pointing to specific political achievements but are simply throwing around emotive words like 'service' and 'honour'. And silly words like colossus.'

Is Harriet Harman being silly when she described Thatcher as a "towering figure"? Everyone knows she was and most can admit it.

That's your opinion and of course you're entitled to it. But again, I think it's worth remembering that the Thatcher kowtowers are very unlikely to be from any of the areas she shafted. I told you my friend's background and yet you still describe his actions as shameful. Thus to me displays a startling lack of empathy.

The Scargill comment wasn't directed at you, by the way. I believe you on that score. Despite completely disagreeing with you about almost everything, I don't think that would be your style, Claig :)

Excellent post, by the way, unami.

'We could talk, for example, about the failure of her care in the community policy'

It's not about whether you agree with her. I don't agree with her "care in teh community" policies and many other of her policies, but I still respect her and want her honoured as the former leader of our country who was almost killed by the IRA while Prime Minister of this country.

I don't agree with Scargill, but I still respect him and would never party at his death.

It's about basic respect.

And lastly, castigate the miners by all means, but not for "putting their communities and villages before their country." Show me a tight knit community which doesn't.

yes it's rather rich the 'community before country' comment when bankers try to 'hold the country to ransom' by demanding extreme, I'd say immoral, levels of bonuses and bleat that they will leave the country IF their pay isn't maintained. Many of these will be Thatchers 'children; if not contemporaries.

I told you my friend's background and yet you still describe his actions as shameful. Thus to me displays a startling lack of empathy.'

You see, I lived through those days and teh biggest recession and highest level of unemployment for a long time, higher than today. But it wsn't only miners and their "communities" and "villages" who were affected. It was millions of us elsewhere, and in industries that never received state handouts.

As I look back on it now and as I hear some of these miners talking about celebrating Thatcher's death because she ruined their "community" because she refused to keep giving them state subsidies, I start to wonder who cared for teh rest of us who never received state handouts.

We got on with it, we retrained and moved home and travelled and got jobs. We didn't nurse a 40 year hatred and sing songs about teh death of Thatcher and hand out death cakes and crack open champagne.

When I see teh actions of these people, I am starting to lose my symapthy for them, and I bet millions of others are too.

'Show me a tight knit community which doesn't.'

Well the rest of the country is not there to serve their "tight knit communities" and to give our tax money to keep their "communities" going. While they were striking and our lights were going out and while we were lighting candles every night, they didn't care about us.

Pan, I agree with you about the bankers. I thought it was a disgrace that Labour knighted them "for services to banking" and neglected to regulate them adequately with their "light touch regulation".

I think some of those people should be in front of a judge for what they did.

erm..see the bank's bail out using taxpayers monies to keep their 'community' going, claig.

besides, I'k old enough to remember the 3 day week and candles and it was fun! And the fact that the birth rate in 1974/5 shot up as tv finished at 10.30pm. Though I always thought that was a political move by Heath.

ooh, the Tories didn't want regulation at all! The mess would have been even bigger IF Gideon and Cameron had their way.

That is what Labour say, but the public don't believe them.