Maggie is Dead.

[Talkinpeace]

at last.

Check out her great friendship with Pinochet.

I wonder how many of the people rejoicing at her death, including posters on here, actually were old enough to vote in 1979.
How many had been working, raising a family, through the disastrous seventies, before she came to power, when the country had been brought to the verge of bankruptcy by militant unionists?

It was no joke. The three day week meant virtually everything was at a standstill. Try getting to work when hardly anyone had a car & the buses & railways are on strike. We had power cuts almost every night so no light,no heat if you had any kind of heating other than a fire, no way to cook a meal when you got home in the evening. No hot water to bath the children, I had a toddler & a newborn.
Inflation was galloping away.Our mortgage interest rate reached 17%. Compare that to now.
Bin men on strike. Black bin bags were piled up to waist height in many streets, the stench was dreadful.
Even the gravediggers went on strike. In Liverpool, not far from us, the health & safety people were becoming so concerned at the number if bodies waiting for burial that they began to discuss burial at sea.

As for the miners, well not only was my father a miner but I was teaching at the time in a school in a Lancashire pit village so I know something about it. It's rarely reported on the BBC that more pits were closed in the sixties under Harold Wilson than were ever closed under Margaret Thatcher,or that not all miners were enamoured of Arthur Scargill & his militant stance. That's why some in Nottingham & Derby broke away from the NUM to form the UDM.

So yes, we were glad to see the back of that disastrous Labour government. By the time of the next election the country was clawing it's way back from being the notorious "sick man of Europe", that's why she was re elected.

It disgusts me to see reports of people waving placards rejoicing at her death, partying in the streets. People obviously too young to have even known what it was like back then. And what does it say about them to cheer when a family is mourning the death of their mother? How would you feel if it was your mother who's death was being gloated over?

BombJack, you are again talking, like a lot of her supporters are at the moment, as though everyone is the same age or younger than you, and therefore they are just parroting what older people, who can remember the Thatcher years, are saying.

How do you know how old people are and what they can remember? MN covers a huge age range. People in their 40s and 50s are perfectly capable of remember Margaret Thatcher as PM, on account of being adults at the time.

I was 15 when she resigned, but I remember the poll tax riots, the miners' strike, I remember watching Hillsborough unfold, and the constant news rolling in from Belfast of death and violence, and my dad's face grey with worry, and I remember the sinking of the Belgrano, and I am 38 years old. I also remember seeing her speeches on the news and being struck by the absolute conviction with which she spoke, which went hand in hand with the total lack of empathy or remorse for any of the people whose lives she was ruining. People have long memories. It is insulting to suggest that they are just ignorant stupid leftists who have forgotten how bad Labour were in the 70s. Yes Labour were bad in the 70s, but this does not make Margaret Thatcher into a nicer person.

Very few people have the patience to retread the detailed economic arguments for and against Thatcher's policies.

No, they don't. They also don't trouble to inform themselves about a time before they were born. They don't appreciate the history, the context nor the reasoning behind the events.

I know plenty of people like this, who will vote for their Party (Tory or Labour alike) without giving any thought to it whatsoever.

Sometimes I feel that if I provide enough evidence...

Please do. On all the hate threads running at the moment, on various sites, I have not seen one piece of factual evidence posted. Not one.

But I see plenty of statements like:

"She started the Falklands war to boost her popularity"...
"She destroyed the mining industry"...
"She destroyed my town"...

Oh, OK then. I'll just believe that shall I? Like I believed my Dad when I was 11?

ipadquietly - the whole buying your council house cheaply has now come back and bitten the country on its arse hasn't it?

The housing waiting lists are growing at a rapid rate, as more and more people lose their homes in today's economic climate, and there isn't enough council housing stock to meet demand.

My cousin is a housing officer in an Eastern county, and based on the average rate that council and housing association homes become available, it would take TEN YEARS to home everyone on their list right now. If they still had the stock of homes they had before 'right to buy' came in, the situation wouldn't be anywhere near as dire.

Right to buy may have benefited the families who bought their homes, but years later, we're seeing the downside of it.

But who cares right, if families are living in hostels, because there aren't enough council/HA houses to go round?!

People will still say it was a great idea. It wasn't.

Death can be sweet relief

council hous sales was a cynical vote winner It worked for greedy Maggie

Oh here we go, the old "how many of you were old enough to vote in 1979" argument, I love that old chestnut.

Not me. I wasn't born until the following year.

However this country today is still reeling from some of policies and decisions. She destroyed this country's sense of community, we have become a more selfish nation, and it all started with her.

And no, that isn't what my dad told me, I'm big enough and ugly enough to have formed my own opinion thank you very much.

Just because I didn't vote, or wasn't old enough to really understand politics while Thatcher was PM, doesn't mean I'm not entitled to an opinion. My generation are living through the effects of her rule later down the line.

Thatcher dying has proved good for me...

... in the sense that it's made mine and DH's decision on what to name our baby girl (due July) a bit easier.

We were considering Margaret, as it's a family name, but we wouldn't use it now as so soon after her death, people might assume it was after Thatcher.

So now we're only down to two.

Silver linings at all that.

*and all that - d'oh!

Aquelven - spot on...

My Grandad's colliery near Wigan closed in 1967. His opinions of Scargill were unrepeatable.

There really was no low to which the Union Left would not sink. Thank God they're history.

Check out her great friendship with Pinochet.

I'm not comfortable with her relationship with Pinochet, no. But I wonder what else I would have done in her place?

When the Chileans stopped providing radar surveillance for one day due to maintenance, an Argentinian attack got through and killed 53 British servicemen. Would it have been right to put people at risk by refusing Chilean aid?

Does ending the government of Galtieri and his dirty war somehow atone? I doubt it. I don't know to be honest.

She had to make those decisions, not us.

To be direct, Bomback, I do believe that the economic context of her policy decisions ought to be, and need to be re-examined at this point in time.

But I find that many of those critical of her policies can point to precise events and places that she drove in the wrong direction, while those who supported her offer nothing about vague praise about get-up-and-go or optimism or some other tosh.

And all this spite for people who criticise her - and the patronising assumption that they were to young to see her rise to power (based on what?) is, I think, nothing but the product of frustrated right wingers who realise that a new generation of young voters are ready to question the legacy of Thatcherism and move away from the center ground.

"And what does it say about them to cheer when a family is mourning the death of their mother? How would you feel if it was your mother who's death was being gloated over?"

That's the "Progressive Left" for you.

Still, Thatcher was told about the party plans & websites a few years ago. The Standard said she was apparently pleased by it all... I hope so. Shows she mattered.

No it isn't the "Progressive Left".

Most of these people are very unlikely to be involved be in politics at all.

Let us also not forget, how Thatcher managed to "fight off" demands for stronger sanctions against South Africa, when Britain and the Commonwealth were dealing with the issue of apartheid.

She had tried to fight against sanctions of any kind, and it's said she said apartheid as an economic liberalism issue, and not a humanity issue.

Her reasoning for this, is she didn't want any sanctions to damage wealth creation in the country. Oh and surprise surprise, her husband Denis had business interests in South African, so we know why.

Don't try to paint her as some saint, because she wasn't.

The Labour Party had thirteen years to put right her her supposed wrongs. Why didn't they build more housing? They seemed to enjoy spending our money. I don't profess to know facts and figures but am I right in thinking they haven't reversed much of what she did.?

That's the "Progressive Left" for you.

The right have always tried to hang the actions of thugs and morons on The Left to try and politically points score. The Nazis did it very effectively when they were coming to power.

There have been more homes built, but there isn't the SPACE to build all the homes that are needed!

The area my cousin works in, is very rural and filled with green belt land, which you cannot build on. I know the Tories want to try and relax the green belt rules, but that is controversial in itself.

The simple fact is, if councils had retained their stock, it wouldn't be such an issue right now.

And with the worst of the austerity measures yet to come, it's only going to get worse, as more people are going to get added to the housing lists.

It would have been a massive economic gamble for them to have tried to reverse what she started.

I was listening to this yesterday

At some point "new" Labour made the choice to pursue neo-liberal economic policy because so far down the line they realised that we were already held over a barrel by global capital. They felt for some reason that they could continue with economic policy that caused great wealth inequality but that they could mitigate against the worst effects by increasing government spending.

Such a very stupid idea because neo-liberal policy is actually creating greater welfare need, ensuring greater tax avoidance, higher military spending, ensuring greater flight of investment out of the country and is causing government debt. Combine lower tax receipts with higher spending on welfare and you have NEW labour! The demand in the economy was built on two things neither of which were workers wages, debt and welfare payments incl tax credits.

She supported Pol Pot and Pinochet That's a lot of blood on her hands.

Wow Slug - I had no idea about the Pol Pot thing - cripes.

And yet she's being hailed a hero by some. Pah!

I can understand the antipathy to Thatcher from the left and from those who personally suffered.

What I would really like to ask those that think she is devil incarnate is that, if they were PM in 1979 facing the problems that the country faced in the 70s what they would have done given the situation the country was in at the time.

This is a serious question WWYHD?

I confess I am someone whose husband tried to run a business in the 1970s and who lost it because of the unions - not because he was directly involved at all, or even because of secondary picketing at his business, but because he was a supplier to a firm that supplied another firm who was brought down by secondary picketing. And of course, not helped by the three day week, endless power cuts, postal strikes etc. etc. by the unions who effectively ran the country.

So I admit my personal interest makes me biased - as it does all those whom Thatcher damaged.

'I truly hope you are joking, Claig'

I am certainly not joking about Thatcher. She was a titan aqnd even Labour politicians admit that. She changed the course of history and changed politics forever. All subsequent politicians, including New Labour have followed her lead. She achieved more than any other peactime British politician last century. She is such a huge historical figure and of such great importance that she deserves respect.

I think she got lots of things wrong and I disagree with some of teh things that she did, but she is probably the most significant peacetime British political leader of the twentieth century. It's not about whether you like her or agree with her, because I don't agree with everything she did. It is about respecting her historical importance and her service to our country.

She changed the world and few people get anywhere near doing that. That is why she should be honoured.

Deniis Healey was on the opposite side, but he understands her brilliance and her undoubted significance to the history of this country.

'It was in the 1970s, when Healey was on the economic front line as chancellor, grappling with inflation, fiscal crisis, soaring oil prices and industrial strife, that the 1945 spirit of planned progress unravelled. Looking back now, did he sense the scale of the cultural and political change that Margaret Thatcher?s victory heralded in 1979? ?I expected her to move in that direction. I never expected her to do so much.? He was advised early on to watch out for the up-and-coming Thatcher by an MP friend who knew her well. ?He said, ?She?s good-looking but she?s also politically brilliant.? He was right.?

There is no partisan animus in Healey at all, whether with regard to past battles between the parties or to his own bruising combat with Labour?s hard left.

?In those days the unions had far too much influence. They could really veto anything they didn?t like,? he says, skimming over one of the most turbulent chapters in his party?s history as casually as he sips his coffee. ?And that time has gone.?

www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk-politics/2013/03/thatcher-was-good-looking-and-brilliant

'There is no partisan animus in Healey at all'

That is how the nation should view her too. The rabble of Socialist Workers and anarchists and 24 year old Unite members celebrating her death have a partisan animus.

But Healey and the country takes the long historical view - the view that recognises her as a towering historical figure.

As a servant of our country, who led our country for all of us, she deserves to be honoured by her country.

Would we not honour the Queen just because there are anti-royalists who object?

Should we not honour Thatcher, who served the nation, who was almost killed in an assination attempt by the IRA, just because there are some anarchists and socialists and miners who object?

What have we become if we cannot honour one of our greatest leaders for what she did for the country?

Do the miners who say they want to celebrate her death and the rabble who celebrate her death have precedence over teh millions of citizens of this country who respect what Thatcher did for us?