Was the Daily Mail right to call Mick Philpott a vile product of the Welfare System?

[Notsoyummymummy1]

Can we say that benefits create this kind of man? I don't think so!

I highly doubt that. Very large families are exceptionally rare in first world countries.

Anne Widicombe has actually spend a week with the vile man and she talked out it last night. Anne stated that Mick is a benefits scouger, had no desire to work and did abuse the benefits system. In fact she found him a job and Mick chose not to take the job. However defrauding the benefits sysem is completely different to being a murderer or even an arsonist.

parsing - if extra DCs meant Phillpot had less to spend on himself, don't you think he would want fewer?

he did not seem to care much about them, not enough to spread his income over more of them, leaving less for himself.

I didn't realise she'd actually found him a job which he turned down. Well, that kind of nails it really doesn't it... he clearly got away with that, it didn't stop him fathering more kids and being paid loads to finance it... clearly the system facilitated him!

As you say ReallyTired, that is a separate issue to being a killer, and of course the vast majority of claimants don't behave like that.

'People like Philpott have the 17 children anyway, welfare state or no welfare state'.

No they don't. 17 children is incredibly rare in this country. He was able to do it because the state paid him to do it. Why is that so hard to accept?

But Philpott had had a job. He was formerly in the army. And both Mairead Philpott and Lisa Willis had jobs. The benefits the family recieved were in the form of tax credits/housing benefit.

And men with Philpott's mindset often target women who are independently wealthy to leech off.

So it's frankly unpleasant and inaccurate bullshit to whine on about the 'benefit culture' having anything to do with the crime this man committed.

You missed the bit about "developing country, no welfare state, good access to contraception" in my posts, did you lemon?

As I said, the benefits culture did not create Philpott but it did allow him to flourish.

It is without doubt form several sources, is it not, that he saw his children as meal tickets?

but most the household income was from benefits. he was in the army 20/30 yrs ago.

who else can afford two partners and 17 DCs?

Ann Widdecombe on Mick Philpott

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22018006

For once she is completely right. Deliberately living off benefits does not explain Mick's wickedness.

Years ago SGB. Both the women had meagre-paying cleaning jobs which would no way have ever covered the amount of rent, food, living expenses for 17 kids, and the alcohol and drugs that the parents consumed.

Their lifestyle was supported by the benefits system.

No Parsing. I completely agree with you about the developing countries.

We're talking about the UK here, which AFAIK is not considered a developing country.

independently wealthy? Two uneducated and vulnerable part time cleaners?

And the joint earnings of the women were put at £14 000 a year. Not sure how even one person could live on that let alone 14.

Superb interview by Ann Widdecombe. She's bang on there.

The wages of Philpott's wife and mistress would have been peanuts compared to what was raked in in benefits so it's hardly accurate to talk of him targeting women of independent wealth.

'women who are independently wealthy'

Two part time cleaners who were on the minimum wage?!!

You're taking the piss now aren't you.

It is a mystery to me why these men I know of in a desperately poor country are so keen to have children whose increasing existence you'd think impoverishes them.

But with certain men that doesn't seem to make them stop having children. Someone probably has an explanation involving biological imperatives, or something. Or narcissim. Or whatever.

But it's simply not true that not having a welfare state prevents men like this from having children. Ordinary non-psychopaths may cut their coat according to their cloth, but not people like this.

Therefore changes to the welfare state cannot prevent the Philpotts of this world from behaving like this. They may knock little old ladies over the head to sustain their lifestyle instead, but they won't wear a condom or spend their loot on the children.

Have the DM defended themselves at all?

No, you are correct that we can't say for sure a tighter benefits system would have prevented Philpott from living such a lifestyle and fathering so many children but we can certainly say for sure that the large sum in benefits he received allowed him to live a very comfortable life without having to work.

I think they were wrong. He is a sociopath surely and it wouldn't make any difference if he worked or not
surely?

obviously i am not a psychiatrist but the judges verdict sounded like he was a sociopath

have you all read it? :(

It might not prevent all psychopaths behaving like it parsing, but you are choosing to ignore the fact that the investigation and trial brought out evidence from several sources that Philpott was indeed motivated to have more children partly for the money (though yes, no doubt his huge ego also played a part) and there is also evidence that he raised on more than one occasion the desire to obtain a bigger house through having more children. That is evidence from witnesses! There may indeed be other psychopaths who would do what he did regardless, but in this specific case, the welfare aspect was relevant. Not a cause. But it facilitated his actions and choices

it's here

so·ci·o·path [soh-see-uh-path, soh-shee-] Show IPA
noun Psychiatry.
a person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is antisocial, often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.

I didn't take SolidGold's post as meaning that these women were independently wealthy. She's saying that there are other ways for men like Philpott to fund their lifestyles as well as welfare and one way is the targeting of women with money.

What is this 'desperately poor' country Parsing?

If it's in the developing world, do you think it may be that they need children to look after them in their old age?

I think that a lot of men and indeed women like having sex and they just don't think too much about the consequences. They are bit like rabbits or the guppy fish in my tropical fish tank who breed without caring whether there is is space or food or other resources to raise the babies/ fry. In fact guppies eat their fry given a chance.