Have we got immigrant paranoia?

[Jac1978]

David Cameron is vowing to end benefits for EU migrants after six months. Around half a million migrants come into the UK every year, one in five from the EU but half return home every year. Only 6% of benefits claimants are foreign born - is Cameron wrongly targetting a minority and just responding to media paranoia about immigrants or is it a real problem and is he right to make things harder for them? Are we blind to the benefits of immigration? Are Brits who emigrate abroad any better?

My uncle saw a letter from the agency it was in Polish so couldn't understand it but it did show in sterling the min wage - so the owner of the letter must have been getting that.

As for accommodation the Polish team leader and at least 8 of the workers were living in a squat until the locals reported them when the anti squatting laws went live.

They may also have to pay for the bus, but at least they get transport to the farm so can work there which is something my uncle wont have soon.

I think farm work has always been provided by transient groups - it is the nature of that kind of work. But there would always have been key workers who would do the general running of the farms.

From a city perspective though - I walked by a cycle path project paid for by the Mayor, managed by the Council, every worker was Polish. There were about 5 of them standing around chatting while one of them did some work. Meanwhile my dp is desperately seeking work and can't find it.

You'd think that the Mayor and the Council would understand that it would benefit the public (which they serve) to employ local workers.

I pass the London Big Issue offices a number of times a month on the way to work. There have been huge changes and there are clearly some organised gangs working there now. The days of lone sellers turning up often with their dogs is long gone.

There are large groups of East Eurpoean's organising themselves outside and I have seen clothes and such like been given out to make them appear more needy. A couple of weeks ago someone was swapping their shoes for open toed sandels (in this weather!) before they went off on their rounds and there was a van outside being driven by 'someone' that clearly was in charge of all of this.

Around here the only Big Issue sellers are from Eastern Europe.

And yes, I do believe they are doing these roles to give themselves access to the UK benefits. Its a loophole.

The Big Issue sellers on the Isle of Wight come over by ferry from the mainland ( I have seen them) - if they can afford the ferry fares they aint starving

You know -I liked seeing the true Big Issue sellers with their beautiful dogs and hate the fact it is has been taken over by others for their own ends.

Yes, I think the Eastern European Bug Issue sellers have done no end of harm to the Big Issue in general. They always put the old ladies on the street selling the Big Issue. Why are people here who are then homeless and need to sell the Big Issue? It makes no sense. It has turned from a way that the homeless can get back into the job market and get back a bit of dignity to a job like any other that some use to get access to the benefits system. The thing is, statistics don't really matter to people when they are the ones who's children have to be taught in portacabins in the playground because the schools are too full, or their green space is being built on to build more schools, or they cant get into hospital when they are in labour because of the rising birthrate. It's not just about whether immigrants work or not, it is the huge rise in population that they bring through children. The emigrants from the UK are made up by quite a lot of pensioners, I would think. These are people who leave by the 1 or 2. The immigrants we get in start off as 1 or 2, then have children that have to be born somewhere, housed somewhere and schooled somewhere. This is causing resentment among people who were previously pro immigration, or had no views one way or another. In some areas of the country, quality of life is suffering now. Improving infrastructure won't matter if you have a 5 year old now in a school with 120 other 5 year olds

My son and his 3 sons,all born in South Africa, have UK passports. The boys also have SA passports. His wife only has a SA passport. My son only has UK passport. They have to share taking the boys through passport control - neither could do all 3 boys.Carin has been his wife for 10 years he works for a multinational company registered in the UK. Why cannot she have a UK passport? Every time they come to the UK she needs a visa - they both work,have private health care and are here on holiday.It is discrimination.

Oh, a link to the Guardian. A link to the website which represents the only subset of the UK population to either benefit from mass immigration or be largely unaffected by it. The Guardian - the Daily Mail for people who think they're too good to read the Daily Mail.

They benefit from it through access to cheap unskilled and semi-skilled labour, and they're largely unaffected by it because they're public sector workers, whose salary is not reduced as a result of the influx of workers with similar skills. In the private sector incomes have been forced down due to the arrival of migrant workers.

For what it's worth, I have only ever worked in the private sector on a very low wage with little job security. I currently do a crappy job in a supermarket for very close to the minimum wage and I read the guardian and agree with their politics :) Am sure I'm not the only one.

Sherbet makes a good point. She is in a low paid role and when more and more people are applying for these low paid roles to gain benefits etc. Well - she might find she loses her job!

She is not someone who is refusing to do this type of work but is scared that instead of say 10 people applying for the role there could be 300..

Have I got that right Sherbet?

Immigrant workers are supported by the government precisely because they provide cheap labour for big business. Many of these big businesses put their money off-shore to save tax here and so the only people that really benefit is the fat cats. They drive labour costs down and make few demands. They are more dispensable and less likely to take unfair employers to tribunal.

The immigrant workers don't get much out of it because they clearly would prefer to be at home in their own country with their own families. The fact is they get better pay here and a bit of NHS treatment thrown in. The Polish woman I know says that her friends have children here but leave when they get to school age. I think a lot of them are not used to ethnic minorities racist and so they don't like the statutory services (education / health) in London because they are so mixed. I say this from experience, it's not just a hunch.

Immigration isn't a problem - the minimum wage, unfair tax and employment standards are a problem and until those are dealt with the native British workforce will continue to be claiming benefit.

The Treasury may bring a bit of extra tax revenue in through migrant workers but the problems that are caused as a result of having a large transient population are not covered for by this extra revenue. The IFS report doesn't take into account the damage caused by the erosion of social cohesion.

polly
Sadly you are right.
If supermarkets can get hundreds of staff for free through Workfare, and cheap produce through gangmasters, why on EARTH would they want to pay English people the living wage
especially when their Minimum Wage payments are topped up by the taxpayer with tax credits.

The tax credits system just made it easier for big (tax avoiding) businesses to shaft the poor of all nationalities.

The Guardian - the Daily Mail for people who think they're too good to read the Daily Mail.

Oh yes.

Perfect summing up in a single sentence.

Er- no. Not perfect, just inaccurate. The DM is a tabloid with far right wing views; the Guardian is pitched towards the left without being The Red Star Daily or whatever. The Telegraph is the DM for people with 'O' levels.

If you are a journalist.. I want to say this....

I am sick and tired of the "bad immigrants stealing all our council houses, commit crime, steal ourjobs etc.." retoric.

Equally I am sick and tired of the "immigrants are young, super human, give [insert random number] £ to the economy and the NHS and [insert industry] couldn't survive without them."

The truth is just like in any populations of people there are immigrants who are fit, healthly and work hard, have some luck and can make money or contribute in another way. There are also people who become sick, can't or won't work, have bad luck and don't make money and need help from the state.

The real issue in this country is that the services [housing, health, education] for everyone are stretched....beyond belief in some areas.... and adding more people who need these services only adds to to the stress.

5 million people in this country need housing. Over the last 20+years 10 million extra people have come to this country. Are we going to be building 5 million council houses???Where??? Who is paying???

The reality is that the government does need to 'control' immigration but that doesn't mean that people who are immigrants aren't welcomed, loved or appreciated. We all need to start having a sensible debate about it all.

Talkinpeace - I am so with you on the tax credits thing. The taxpayer is propping up bad employers by supplying what is effectively a wage top-up.

What's not to like for Tesco's?

Increasing the minimum wage will sort this problem overnight as the only employers that will want to stay in this country will be forced to invest in their employees. At the moment they choose low paid immigrants because they are reliable and cheap but dispensable. If they had to pay them more they wouldn't want to invest in workers that may want to leave in a few months. They would want people who would stay and put back into the company.

Immigration isn't the problem - poor wages and working conditions definitely are.

Erebus

Er- no. Not perfect, just inaccurate. The DM is a tabloid with far right wing views; the Guardian is pitched towards the left without being The Red Star Daily or whatever.

Nonsense. The Guardian is just as full of hate, fearmongering and intolerance as the DM. It is way to the left - it represents a tiny minority of people who have comfort and wealth and are determined to keep it.

And if you don't think the Guardian is 'red', I advise you to read Seamus 'Stalin was a misunderstood snugglepuss' Milne's contributions. Not just him of course. They get communists from the New Economics Foundation, watermelons from the Green party, and hundreds of other contributors who are so far round the left-wing bend they couldn't poke the centre ground with a long pole.

pollypandemonium Tue 26-Mar-13 22:00:01
^
Talkinpeace - I am so with you on the tax credits thing. The taxpayer is propping up bad employers by supplying what is effectively a wage top-up.^

What's not to like for Tesco's?

Increasing the minimum wage will sort this problem overnight as the only employers that will want to stay in this country will be forced to invest in their employees. At the moment they choose low paid immigrants because they are reliable and cheap but dispensable. If they had to pay them more they wouldn't want to invest in workers that may want to leave in a few months. They would want people who would stay and put back into the company.

You'll put millions out of work because small businesses can't afford to take them on, and you still won't get British workers employed because employers will choose the hardest worker rather than the British worker.

Immigration isn't the problem - poor wages and working conditions definitely are.

I suppose that all those millions of extra workers haven't contributed to wage depression?

Only because the minimum wage is so low. That's my point. The immigration is a result of the low wage, not the other way round. If employers had to pay more and invest in their staff properly they would undoubtedly invest in workers that are going to stay for the long haul.

flatpack

The thing is that the "National Minimum Wage" is substantially more than employers pay - because all full time workers on NMW are topped up from £11,700 to £17,500 with tax credits.

Those tax credits are paid for out of the NI and PAYE paid by the rest of us, NOT out of the corporation taxes of the employers who saved the money in the first place.

Workfare is even more offensive : we, other taxpayers, pay benefits to people who work for free for FTSE listed companies .....

Depressingly I think Gideon's budget gamble of the £2000 ERS NI credit is actually a really good idea because for a small employer it will make a really big difference. Plc's will not notice.

BUT
the problem is between rich and poor.
Nationality is not the major issue.

Thanks for clarifying Talkin - what's Gideon's budget gamble? I think I've not been paying attention.

Polly
All employers will be able to deduct £2000 per year from their ERS NI bill from next year - ERS NI is a 13.8% tax that employers pay for having employees.
In a small employer it basically subsidises the cost of two apprentices / trainees / part timers.
Big businesses will not notice.
Just have to hope tat before it comes in (April 2014) it does not get emasculated by HMRC - but the idea is well sound)

Increasing the minimum wage will sort this problem overnight as the only employers that will want to stay in this country will be forced to invest in their employees.

Rubbish. What will happen is employers will think harder before employing anyone and many companies will move more jobs overseas instead.

We always seem to use Tesco's, Amazon & Starbucks as examples of companies who can afford to pay more. But seldom do we mention many small companies who most people work for whom can ill afford to pay a higher minimum wage.

Also many large companies who are offshoring jobs at a rate of knots to take advantage of the even lower rates of pay abroad. I regularly travel to Egypt where we have a large delivery centre (aka call centre) and the area we are in has virtually every multinational company you can think of. Vodafone, Microsoft, HSBC to name but a few.

We can hire young bilingual (often trilingual) graduates who will work twice as hard for 30% of what they would earn in the UK on minimum wage. And by god they are happy with that! During the revolution despite management telling everyone to go home and the office would be closing, many employees returned with sleeping bags and loaded up with food so they could camp out and continue to work. That's the sort of motivation your UK employees are up against.

I'm not saying it's right...I'm not saying it's wrong. It is what it is. We compete in a global market place and we're getting our arses handed to us on a plate. Upping our minimum wage....just another nail in our economic coffin.

Niceguy it is clear that even our minimum wage is not low enough for your company to employ here, they are recruiting abroad anyway. We don't really compete in a global market place, what it really is is taking advantage of the lowest paid where we possibly can. Thats not competition, it's opportunism.

Hillbilly who decides that someone's labour is 'worth' £6 - it's about supply and demand. If you have to raise your price to provide the quality goods because they are made by the quality workforce, people will have to pay it.

Tesco make huge profits - they are perfectly capable of paying staff more but they don't need to, so they won't. But if they were forced to pay £9 you can bet they would choose the very best workers to do the job and they would very likely be the workers that can speak english, read and write and smile at customers at the same time.