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Have we got immigrant paranoia?

276 replies

Jac1978 · 25/03/2013 10:20

David Cameron is vowing to end benefits for EU migrants after six months. Around half a million migrants come into the UK every year, one in five from the EU but half return home every year. Only 6% of benefits claimants are foreign born - is Cameron wrongly targetting a minority and just responding to media paranoia about immigrants or is it a real problem and is he right to make things harder for them? Are we blind to the benefits of immigration? Are Brits who emigrate abroad any better?

OP posts:
SellingInMyBlood · 27/03/2013 01:56

I think many, if not most, of the respondents to this question have missed the point.

There is no doubt that from a pure economic point of view, immigration is a good thing: 1) Immigration has the immediate effect of reducing wages and other labour costs. 2) Immigrants tend to be young: that means they pay taxes and social welfare contributions and don't draw pensions. 3) It is more easy in the medium term fund current pensions from the increased immigrant tax take.

The last Labour government had no mandate to allow unfettered waves of immigrants into the UK, but they did, why?

Did they not know the economic effects of immigration, of course they did. They knew real wages in the unskilled, low paid segment would be put under pressure. They knew that many would be forced from the labour market onto surviving on benefits.

Did they estimate the social welfare effects; pressure on education in some areas, local doctor surgeries, hospitals etc. etc. Of course they knew what was going to happen. Look at the government reports and estimates of the demand for social welfare in the short to medium published in the early part of the last government - the figures are there?

Did they think that planned waves of immigration would create social tension which could easily spill over into outright race riots. Yes they did. That is why they invented the biggest taxpayer backed programme of political re-education / brain washing since the Chinese Cultural Revolution. The diversity and multi-cultural programmes and training. Under Gordon Brown 56% of the working population was in the government sector. That means that a very large proportion of the population has undergone this unnecessary, taxpayer funded political brain washing.

They spawned a whole new industry overnight. Teachers and health workers diverted from teaching and caring into delivering political propaganda. The oodles of consultants, consulting to all manner of government bodies on how to implement and maintain compliance with the new laws. The hundreds of taxpayer funded quangos advising and reporting on multiculturalism and diversity. One such body in the Welsh Valleys advised its local government clients to stop using the term "British" when speaking to members of the public regarding nationality because, and I quote, "The term, British, could easily be interpreted as a term of abuse and or taken as an insult and or cause offence".

So in short, the Labour party, with malice and aforethought, embarked upon a programme of mass immigration that they knew full-well would screw their own working class electoral base. Nobody can argue that they didn't know what they were doing and what the effects would be and on whom. They knew alright. So why?

Well if you care to read the documents (secret under Labour) that the new government had released, the answer is there; and I quote, "immigration will further the social aims of the Labour Party". What does that mean?

It means it is a well known fact that immigrants, when they achieve the right to vote, tend to vote left wing by a margin of 70%. Moreover, the released reports thinly veil the fact that immigration was a tactic designed to put the right wing in the country on the back foot. That is why whenever any body questioned the policy they were accused of being racist.

Insofar as the current high levels of immigration are maintained then, IN THE SHORT TERM, real wages will continue to be depressed and pressure on social welfare systems will continue. One simply has to accept this new reality. If you are low paid and feeling the competitive pressure from immigrants willing to work even harder for even less, then I'm sorry, but it's not going to change. Neither will the pressure on the social welfare systems - you are going to have to get used to longer queues at the doctors and class sizes approaching 40 pupils - of mixed language ability.

Many on these pages have repeatedly mentioned the economic and social welfare effects. However, there is now sufficient evidence - gleaned from academic studies, reports and opinion poles - to suggest that once the economy pulls round these worries will disappear. But the long term deeper seated worries will remain and that these are worries about cultural differences.

The judeo-christian ethic, like it or not, is the cornerstone and foundation of all Western society. Each separate region or country of the "West" has taken this foundation and remoulded it in their own way. Slavic Poland is staunchly Catholic. But so are the Mediterranean countries; but the Catholicism is very different - because the Romano, Gallic, Iberian culture is different from Polish-Slavic culture. The British have a particular culture and history that is as important to us, and our sense of who we are and what we want to be, as being Polish is to a Pole who lives in Warsaw. Being British, living amongst fellows who share common values and culture is important - and there is nothing wrong with that.

The evidence suggests there is a growing sense, across all social spectra that, "traditional British culture" is being persecuted, purposely depressed and outlawed. Daily reports of Christians being persecuted and sacked due to their faith when other religions are given free reign. The pub which during the World Cup was threatened with closure by the police unless it took down its St, George's cross flag - because a passing commuter on a bus had called and said he was offended by it. The prosecution of young adults in Swanson for flying the St. Georges cross flag on the occasion of an England win.

The problem is not East European immigration. The East Europeans share a common judeo-christian ethic and in a couple of generations will be playing cricket, eating fish and chips and cheering England in the World Cup. Because of their common judeo-christian ethic they will be assimilated and as British as they come - even if their name ends in "ski". The problem is non-European immigration.

What is stoking up the long term fires of anti-immigration is the general sense that being British and proud is somehow no longer official accepted. That being British has to be subsumed, hidden away, no longer socially acceptable. The sense that "British" culture is being slowly outlawed and legislated against.

Most British people want to live in a community that shares common traditional "British" values. Most persons would prefer government expenditure be directed towards assisting new arrivals to quickly assimilate rather than, at every opportunity, ramming down the throats of the general population, politically correct diversity and multiculturalism.

What we need is assimilation not multiculturalism.

If you are working class, low paid or unemployed then the next time you consider voting Labour just remember that it was they, with full knowledge, malice and aforethought, that screwed you and your fellow workers. That being low paid but British and proud was no longer acceptable and that you had to be content with just being low paid.

HillBilly76 · 27/03/2013 02:48

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Mrsdavidcaruso · 27/03/2013 06:43

Flatpackhamster how fucking dare you say the hardest worker wont be the British worker thats total rubbish and I am sick of people like you saying this.

I used to live in South London where most of the people employed seem to be foreign very rarely did I deal with a British worker in my day to day life - that was fair enough immigrants tend to gravitate to large cities where there is more work

I now live on the Isle of Wight where although we have immigrants working here the majority of the work is done by British workers

My Bus Driver, Taxi Driver, Supermarket Assistant, Dentist, Doctor, Nurse
Train Driver, Plumber, Electrician, Roofer, in fact all the people who provide me with service in my day to day life are BRITISH.

So if moronic people like you are correct nothing would get done here on the Island in fact it's the opposite. I have never had better service than on the Island.

We have a large amount of people unemployed in fact we are a black spot but thats NOT because the Islanders don't want to work, there are few jobs here, thats why 2,000 people turned up for an open day at the of the local tourist attractions competing for 15 seasonal jobs, thats why we had 300 replies for a part time Admin job at my work.

I am getting sick and tired of people like you Hamster

SherbetVodka · 27/03/2013 08:24

Nonsense. The Guardian is just as full of hate, fearmongering and intolerance as the DM. It is way to the left - it represents a tiny minority of people who have comfort and wealth and are determined to keep it.

Wikipedia's definition of left wing: In politics, left-wing describes an outlook or specific position that accepts or supports social equality, often in opposition to social hierarchy and social inequality. It usually involves a concern for those in society who are disadvantaged relative to others and an assumption that there are unjustified inequalities (which right-wing politics views as natural or traditional) that need to be reduced or abolished.

Quite the opposite to "a tiny minority of people who have comfort and wealth and are determined to keep it".

That phrase from you, in fact, sums up the mentality of the right wing, neoliberal political class. The ones who are privatising the NHS, cutting social care provision and public services to the bone, removing lifeline benefits from disabled people, allowing wealthy corporations to exploit the unemployed as free labour and deliberately perpetuating social inequality safe in the knowledge that their own wealth and privilege will always protect them and their children from the penury that they are condemning so many others to.

SherbetVodka · 27/03/2013 09:00

It is way to the left - it represents a tiny minority of people who have comfort and wealth and are determined to keep it.

The guardian is the only newspaper that regularly criticises the government's privatisation of the NHS and its demonisation of benefit claimants. It frequently reports on the difficulties faced by disabled people who are facing poverty and loss of independence due to cuts in/removal of their benefits. Last week it exposed the existence of targets for sanctioning benefit claimants in the DWP. It often runs articles about families who are struggling to feed their children due to poverty

This may be "way to the left" but I can't fathom how this shows that it "represents a tiny minority of people who have comfort and wealth" at all Hmm

maisiejoe123 · 27/03/2013 09:23

I agree HillBilly - I dont particulary like self service checkouts but lots do and not just the younger generation. The old folks seem to really like them around here.

People are the most expensive part of a business, when the chips are down economically companies will look for cheaper ways of doing things whether that be self service or off shoring. Its business, its not personal!

niceguy2 · 27/03/2013 09:29

they would very likely be the workers that can speak english, read and write and smile at customers at the same time.

And judging from what I've seen at our local schools, those employees will be immigrants. It's an absolute disgrace that my Eastern European fiancee who came to the UK with only the English she learnt at school has a better grasp of grammar & spelling than most of the people she's interviewing. Even worse that many of them fail the basic maths test such as "How much change do you get from £20 if something costs £17.84" and they get the use of a calculator for that. My 11 year old worked it out in his head whilst munching on a sandwich.

We don't really compete in a global market place, what it really is is taking advantage of the lowest paid where we possibly can.

And who is taking advantage of the lowest paid? The companies? Or you as a consumer? Next time you go buy your car insurance or switch gas companies to save a couple of quid a month, that puts pressure on companies to shave costs where it can. And outsourcing is one way of lowering costs.

Where do you think your mobile phone is from? Brighton? No. Chances are it's from China. Why? Because they can make it cheaper there and if it were British made it would be 3x the price meaning you wouldn't buy it.

We've seen many front line call centres return to the UK because consumers demanded it. Vote with your wallet and companies will follow. But don't blame companies for trying to shave costs where they can in order to get your business.

merrymouse · 27/03/2013 10:29

In this country it is agreed by all main political parties that every person in a full time job should have a certain living standard. If that living standard cannot be met from their salary they are subsidised by the government.

Employers may feel they are making savings by driving down wages. However, what goes around comes around, and the balance has to be clawed back through tax. Whether tax drives down sales because of increases in VAT, takes money out of the consumer's pocket because of increases in income tax, or (even) there is an increase in Corporation Tax, this effects business.

If we all want to live in a civilised society, we have to pick up the bill somewhere.

OneLittleToddleTerror · 27/03/2013 11:41

Thanks niceguy, I'd have missed the gem that is We don't really compete in a global market place. Many of us in white collar jobs are. I'm in software and it is very much a global market. We have products with customers in India and Eastern Europe. We have developement in India and China. Our head office is in California. We are a manufacturer (of virtual goods), along with services, which is supposedly what the British economy should be based on. At least everyone is drumming on about manufacturing but seems to have the idea of manufacturing stuck in the past of big factories.

Without people who are exporting, and hence, competing in a global market and workplace, we won't have any money local services. And we buy so much that is made overseas, because we all vote with our money for cheaper price.

Actually I prefer self checkouts. I also prefer to buy online.

MiniTheMinx · 27/03/2013 12:12

"we all vote with our money for cheaper price"
"I prefer self checkouts"

I guess you would also prefer to pay more tax so that neo-liberal corporatist agenda can continue to perpetuate welfare need through the erosion of wages to those in low skilled work or even rising unemployment. Oh good oh.

Some interesting points SellingInMyBlood I agree that Labour further opened the door and created layers of government jobs to promote multi-culturalism. Creating a situation where inequality is perceived to be based on gender, culture, race and religion is used to divide us. Identity politics plays into the hands of global capital. Labour was "NEW" labour.

In many ways I can understand why people take up the position that UK PLC needs to be competitive in the global economy. However one of the contradictions of globalisation is the pressure upon nation states to deregulate to allow easier capital flow (capital being the means of production and finance capital but also human capital) whilst also increasing the pressure upon nations to be competitive. This is undermining nations in terms of tax and welfare but conversely causing a situation where competing nations will become hostile to outsiders.

slug · 27/03/2013 12:19

I work in about the most international place you could imagine.

anqet · 27/03/2013 12:29

Academic research has shown that Eastern Europeans immigrants - from A8 & A2 countries - are more likely to be in employment than British citizens and significantly less likely to ask for benefits. This research is largely ignored in media.

www.voxeu.org/article/fiscal-effects-a8-migration-uk
www.esrc.ac.uk/my-esrc/grants/RES-173-27-0208/outputs/read/168e9670-4f8d-45ad-a5cf-438b26ca39cf

Using the immigrants as scapegoats is a very easy thing to do. I think the real problem has nothing to do with immigrants, it's actually related to the benefit systems for ALL. I think it's very easy in this country to stay off work if you are willing to live on minimum income that comes from benefits.

I worked and lived legally in five countries so far, not only EU ones, and I find UK to be the most permissive of all five when it comes to giving benefits, especially social housing - and not to immigrants, just generally speaking, to people who are complacent and don't want to return to work. Immigrants tend to work harder to make a living and compensate for the language/cultural/lack of networking disadvantage as compared to locals. That is well known in sociological literature...

I have never requested any benefits myself except maternity pay (conditioned by me being in employment the year before) and child benefit (which was universal). I was never unemployed and always paid taxes as a resident, and tried to support every local community I lived in.

And, as a Romanian, I find it incredibly sad about being singled out as a nation because of bad press & misinterpreted statistics - mostly Daily Mail, Telegraph, and the Sun. This is happening even in this topic -- and it's based on sheer ignorance, I'm afraid. Pointing fingers at Romanians & Bulgarians (it was Polish people several years ago) won't solve your problems. It might bring some votes here and there but that's about it.

Cheers.

flatpackhamster · 27/03/2013 12:33

The argument against mass immigration is not - at least from my political part of the spectrum - about how hard working immigrants are or whether or not they are just coming here for benefits.

The argument is that they are forcing down salaries for semi-skilled and unskilled jobs and that they are competing for scarce welfare resources with the people already living here. We are not short of unskilled and semi-skilled workers.

Bridgetbidet · 27/03/2013 13:06

SherbetVodka. Have you read the Guardian recently? Have you looked at the products it promotes? How expensive they are? The lifestyle it sells to it's readers? There are things in there that would absolutely shame a third world dictator they're so expensive. Their whole ethos has about as much relevance to someone living and working on a council estate in Merthyr Tydfill or Leeds as the classified adverts in Country Life.

Bridgetbidet · 27/03/2013 13:10

Sellinginmyblood I think that's very well said.

I have always found the 'equalities' agenda a particular con. The biggest inequalities in the country at the moment is the gap between rich and poor. But the lefts insistence that it is actually between races, religions and sexual preferences is a smoke screen to distract from the fact that they are doing nothing about real inequalities which are financial.

Look at what the last Labour government did - abolished the 10p tax rate, abolished the student grant, introduced tuition fees. All things which massively increased the inequalities in our society. But they got away with little comment.

alemci · 27/03/2013 14:51

I agree with selling in my blood.

I don't think it is particularly that we don't want immigrants from certain countries either i.e. Romania and Bulgaria. I think that it would be better not to have any more unskilled poor people coming into Britain at present where ever they are from and often the EU is used as a route into Britain.

We need to sort out the back log of ones who have come here illegally or are waiting for citizenship.

Mumsyblouse · 27/03/2013 15:02

Alemci I think it remains to be proven that it will be the unskilled poor coming here, so far it has been (due to visa restrictions perhaps) those who are highly educated and skilled, and in general it is not the elderly or sick that want to start again in a new place. There may be a small proportion of unskilled labourers who are prepared to do the crop picking type jobs, but in general, the Eastern Europeans I have met (Polich, Bulgarian) have tended to be underemployed and very highly qualified, just doing what we would class as poorly paid jobs.

alemci · 27/03/2013 15:05

Mumsy

what about the Roma. Some of them are here already.

Mumsyblouse · 27/03/2013 15:07

Sellinginmyblood I kind of agree with what you are saying about the judeo-christian ethic underlying a lot of Eastern European cultures which means actually they integrate pretty well in the UK and within a generation or two blend in very easily (for example that lady on Question Time had Polish grandparents who had done so). However, the one elephant in the room in terms of culture is the different gipsy/Roma culture which is not mainstream within those EE cultures or here, and does not seamlessly blend (think begging on the tube with children in tow, for example).

There has been a lot of conflation in the press between 'Romanians and Bulgarians' and Romanian and Bulgarian gipsy populations, as if they are all the same thing, whereas of course these are minority stigmatized populations within their own countries and may well remain so here. It's like taking examples of British people off 'My Big Fat Gipsy Wedding'- many people simply can't relate to what is essentially a sub-culture.

alemci · 27/03/2013 15:11

I think the last government let far too many unskilled people in from 1997.

Also I still think we need to put our own young people and graduates first who would like to be given half a chance to prove themselves and be able to have a career. Why should it be made so difficult for them.

I understand about the differences in culture with the Roma but it is still problematical.

Mumsyblouse · 27/03/2013 15:12

Alemci- yes I agree, there are a fairly disposessed Roma population who are already ostracised in Eastern Europe who may well come here, and a few have done already, but most EE's don't identify with that culture, despite the Daily Mail's best efforts to conflate the two effortlessly.

anqet · 27/03/2013 16:08

Roma integration is extremely difficult. I remember growing up in Communist Romania and we had Roma families in the community. I had Roma friends, even though my parents didn't agree with that. Part of it was because they were stealing from my grandparents' garden even though my grandparents were giving them food when they were coming to our door to ask.

Also, one of my tasks a as communist 'scout'/pioneer was to knock on their door in the morning to make sure my class mate was coming to school. They didn't want to send their child to school. To them it was a burden, it was costly - uniform mainly, as school books were free at the time - and they preferred if their child stayed at home to work (or some sent them to steal..). They registered their children just to get child benefits. At some point in history, I can't remember the year, the former dictator started giving them incentives (a one-off payment) if they registered the birth of their child.

Of course, not all Romas are like that. I'm talking about my very limited experience.

And things have changed since then. However, it is true that Romas are still marginalized and there is prejudice and discrimination - but they do have access to state education, healthcare, etc. in the same way all Romanians have. There is even "positive discrimination" -- there are "Roma places" in state universities, where admission criteria are not only academic but ethnic. They have political representation too.

maisiejoe123 · 27/03/2013 17:55

I often go into Central London, Victoria etc. Who are these people with EE accents pulling at you asking for money. Everytime I go in now there are people begging often with very young chidlren. Its horrible and upsetting. I consider myself to be street wise, there were two of them surrounding me last time... One presumably to distract me and the other to dip into my handbag...

When I drive into London at certain crossroads there are EE's cleaning your windscreen whether you want it or not. They are becoming increasingly agressive when they tap on your window for paying.

ttosca · 27/03/2013 18:08

Bridget

I have always found the 'equalities' agenda a particular con. The biggest inequalities in the country at the moment is the gap between rich and poor. But the lefts insistence that it is actually between races, religions and sexual preferences is a smoke screen to distract from the fact that they are doing nothing about real inequalities which are financial.

The left doesn't insist that the greatest inequalities are between races or sexes or religion. Those are liberal pre-occupations, some of which the left agree with.

The left has always insisted that class is the primary and most important inequality in society, and if you fix that, then other inequalities will follow. Stop the small minority of parasites prospering from the hard work of the majority is the main goal of the left - at least those from the socialist tradition.

Have you never heard the slogan 'No war but the class war'?

Look at what the last Labour government did - abolished the 10p tax rate, abolished the student grant, introduced tuition fees. All things which massively increased the inequalities in our society. But they got away with little comment.

In what way did they 'get away with little comment'? This simply isn't true at all.

ttosca · 27/03/2013 18:14

Immigrants are taking the flak for the government's failings

David Cameron is using a sensitive and important issue purely for political advantage.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/03/immigrants-are-taking-flak-governments-failings

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