Have we got immigrant paranoia?

[Jac1978]

David Cameron is vowing to end benefits for EU migrants after six months. Around half a million migrants come into the UK every year, one in five from the EU but half return home every year. Only 6% of benefits claimants are foreign born - is Cameron wrongly targetting a minority and just responding to media paranoia about immigrants or is it a real problem and is he right to make things harder for them? Are we blind to the benefits of immigration? Are Brits who emigrate abroad any better?

MiniTheMinx

Let me add that my country got under the rule of Communism thanks to betrayal of the UK and France before the WWII. And you seem to think to have the right to decide who belongs to Europe and who is unworthy unemancipated Eastern European? Shame on you. Read your history.

Talking Peace

I take your point but perhaps the unemployed British should have been made to take the jobs you outlined instead of being able to remain on benefits. Also some British do the jobs you quoted anyway.

Shouldn't the voters decide. Obviously Cameron is at last listening. Most people I know are fed up with the situation. People mutter in corners about it. I live in Greater London and it has changed alot in the last 20 years'.

Not every cleaner is from abroad for example

Also Upthread I am sure someone mentioned that their dad had been made redundant and someone else from abroad was employed in his place.

My Great Granny was Roma and my Great Grandfather was Jewish both fled eastern Europe under right wing governance. I have a fair idea of the difficulties faced. What I do know is that under socialism things improved.

In terms of education, I have read that Bulgarian families remove their children from local schools when the Roma children start there. There is outright hostility and discrimination towards them. And I would challenge the notion of welfare benefits, some of these families are living in slum conditions barely habitable.

RalucaV, I am in favour of socialism. The Czechs were over run with Nazi sympathisers long before the war, they opened the door to Hitler and welcomed him in.

MiniTheMinx

I can't speak of Bulgaria and Romania, they are both much poorer countries than the CZ, so I imagine the Roma are also much poorer than in my country. However, here it is actually difficult to persuade Roma families that their children should go to school and study. They fully rely on allowance and petty crime and in fact hinder their children's education, not the other way around as some international organizations try to paint it. Really, if you haven't seen this and experienced it first hand, it is difficult to judge this situation based only on reports in newspapers or hearsay. It is a complex problem because without education they will not get anywhere and the social problems will only get worse.

I had several Roma schoolmates and several Roma pupils and their greatest problem was to actually come to school and do any school work at all. Their families simply don't support them and sometimes don't even let them. Nowadays, the jobs are scarce even for university educated people in the CZ, so you can imagine that uneducated Roma can hardly get any jobs at all. And the problem gets more and more complicated like this.

My father's family actually came from Romania, so I know the level of xenophobia here and if you work and don't make money by stealing, it's non-existent. And my dad looks like a typical gypsy, although he isn't.

MiniTheMinx

Really, read your history. That were no Czechs, but ethnic Germans within Czechoslovakia, who welcomed Hitler, where did you get this, for godssake?

I'm not exactly a socialist, I'm somewhere in the middle (governments should do their best so that all people, rich, poor, old, young, black, white or gay, within a country or region are happy). That's my political stance.

I think part of the problem is the Roma have traditionally been mobile and even their stories and poems in their own language were never written down. Their traditional trades are no longer available to them and they can not be tolerated to be on the move, even if there was a reason to move. There is no work to move for!

I agree it is very complex and I am certainly not laying the blame on individuals but I very much feel that nationalism and stoking up racism is something the right wing do very well and in an economic crisis (is it still a crisis? depression? ) so easy for that to spill over into outright hostility even at the national level. Some commentators are likening the social and political rumblings to that of the period leading up to WW2.

What makes me so sick when I hear Scameron, is the knowledge that "Brits" are encouraged towards nationalism through a steady stream of propaganda whilst he and his class care not a jot for the nation. They are waging a class war against the poor. They and their class have class solidarity whilst the rest of us fight over the scraps and turn on our fellow workers/ordinary working people.

Well said, Mini.

^The thing is, in order for non-EU born residents to access benefits, you need to become either a permanent resident or a citizen.

Not true.
I am a non EU national.
[...]
I do not have a visa of any shape or kind.
I have a manky ILR stamp in my passport - undated, unrecorded on any computer by the UKBA.^

If we are talking about the current non-EU migration rules, I am sorry to note that it is your data which is not true, Talkingpeace.

To get an ILR, one do need visas in all their shapes and forms - family member (the shortest way, 2 years to ILR), or PBS (5+ years) or asylum seeker (depends). Even foreign-born children have to get visas and live with their parents complying to visa rules to get an ILR.

The Germans spent many months on propaganda in CZ, I agree no ordinary CZs wanted Hitler. As I remember from my reading there were two factions. The Nazi faction won out, they had Germans pouring in stirring things up in the streets. I have read C20th History. Sometimes I wonder whether we are still struggling with the after effects or unresolved issues from WW2. This week the Russians offer Cyprus a life line Merkel says no way. The Bretton woods agreement could fall under the strain of this economic crisis and of course there are neo-cons in the states who are just itching to start another war. Great Huh.

MiniTheMinx

the Roma issue has been taboo to discuss for 20 years for fear of the EU labelling us as racist (as you greatly illustrate yourself) and therefore no improvement could have been done. No politician here had the courage to do that, so the problem has been growing and now after most parts of Eastern Europe entered Schengen, the West gets to see the realities of that problem. However, we were not allowed to even speak of a Roma problem for a long time, so don't expect us to solve it now for you. Maybe this will alert Brussels and something will finally happen to improve the situation for the Roma and the Eastern Europeans alike.

I agree about escalating this inter-class and inter-ethnic hate on purpuse to hide the real cause. As I said, we've had a fair share of it too, but in our case the target is the unemployed.

MiniTheMinx

you remember wrong regarding that history. Look up Munich Agreement. Czechs were never fascists, nor welcomed Hitler. You probably mix it up with Hungary. Many Czech soldiers commited suicide after Munich Agreement was signed by Germany, Britain, France and Italy (we were not even allowed to be present) because it was great betrayal by our most trusted allies. Then in the WWII many Czechs served in RAF and contributed to the victory in the Battle of Britain.

I guess it's not a part of the UK curriculum.

To be honest I wish I hadn't read this thread as it just serves to worry me more about where this country will end up. I think that we are playing directly into the hands of politicians when as a society we start rounding on each other at times of pressure like this.

But most of all it saddens me to think that my polish born niece is likely going to have to face some pretty shitty comments and treatment before she grows up if eastern european immigration is allowed to become the acceptable face of racism. I very much doubt that the average person in the street bothers to care that my db and sil both work and have never claimed a penny. I dislike the way immigrant and benefit claimant are always assumed to go together.

On the general topic of immigration and whether we have got it right... I think there does tend to be a knne jerk reaction. Think of what it takes to leave your home, your culture, family, friends, language..ROOTS. It is not an easy move to make and one which few would make lightly unless they were very driven (usually not characteristics of people who want to live on benefits).
I emigrated to the UK 17 years ago and despite now having a family here (dd is half English) I still feel homesick and sad sometimes. I have an excellent and very well paid career and it was right to come here, but you do give up a lot too. I never feel totally at home here (I am missing 23 years of shared background, didn't grow up with "Blue Peter" etc!) and will also be a "foreigner" although rarely if ever do I experience negativity. When I go home I also feeling an outsider as I am missing the last 17 years of life (silly things like who is on TV there, I'm not in touch with day to day stuff).
I guess what I am saying is, if I find emigrating tough, when I have a very decent income, settled family, etc, I can't imagine why or how people in more difficult circumstances could take the decision lightly to leave everything to come and live here on benefits, it just doesn't add up.

RalucaV, yes you are right, I am not disagreeing with you I am simply saying that there was a propaganda campaign waged by Germany and a few Nazi sympathisers in the lead up to them making their direct threat to march in. I agree also that the UK placated Germany and sold the Czs out. I seem to think that I read about this in The History Twentieth Century Martin Gilbert Vol2 but it was a very long time ago

I also agree that this business of stoking up racial hatred is very worrying but it is very much in the DNA of right wing governments.

Mini, RalucaV is right about the Czechs not being sympathisers of Hitler. But there was a very large ethnic German population in Czechoslovakia.

Czechoslovakia was formed after the first world war and it was formed with 23% of its population being ethnic Germans - Sudeten Germans.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudeten_Germans

MiniTheMinx

I actually teach at a secondary school that is focused on modern history and I'm a history enthusiast, not a historian, though. There is an extensive article about Munich Agreement on wikipedia in English.
A quote by W. Churchill after the Agreement was signed: "Britain and France had to choose between war and dishonour. They chose dishonour. They will have war"

I hope it will never come to ethnic hatred and wars in Europe again (I think Yugoslavia showed us pretty well where it ends). It's also pretty stupid in a space where no one can claim any pure ancestry anyway, Europe being always in war or on the move in the past millenia. I could be Chinese for all I know :)

However, I'm afraid that if we are not thriftier with public money and that is the responsibility of politicians and us as voters, too, the European states will simply fall down, totally bankrupt.

Znaika,

you see, there are even great differences withing Eastern Europe, as you know, even within individual countries.
However, the people are none the worse or less educated than in the West. They are just different and usually have bad English. And?

Do you really believe that the whole of Romania and Bulgaria will come to swarm up the UK? Those who wanted to come, are already there, as I said before.

Znaika,

I'm not a chippy Eastern European, I beg your pardon. I've travelled a lot, worked and studied in the US and have a university degree (MA). The only real difference I see between our countries are the size, obviously, and the salaries, the rest is more or less the same. I would like to have some of British education system, but not British healthcare system etc. I like British culture a lot, but I'm not ashamed of my countries either.
I'm only sorry that I can't travel more on a teacher's salary, but it was my decision to stay and not go elsewhere where salaries are five times higher and where I would be a stranger for the rest of my life anyway. I don't need to drive a Range Rover to be happy, I prefer good people.

TO: RalucaV.

FYI

88 Czechoslovakian pilots flew in the Battle of Britain. The Czechoslovakian 310 Squadron and 312 Squadron became operational during the Battle of Britain. Together with Czechoslovak pilots serving in other RAF units, a total of 88 Czechoslovaks (86 Czechs and 2 Slovak) served claiming almost 60 air kills. Nine pilots were killed.

Znaika, don't you think that the situation has changed though from when the borders first opened up? I listen to Romanian radio/read the papers etc (I live in a neighbouring country but speak Romanian) and I'm not sure it's even registering on most people's radars that the rules are changing.

Yes you're right that living conditions are generally better in the UK and yes, there are people who want to come, but I just don't think that there is going to be any great influx.

Bumblebzz What you say is so true. Add to that, that over time you become a foreigner to your country of origin, too - I don't think I could go back without experiencing severe reverse culture shock.

Sometimes makes me feel displaced.

Those who are most scared of immigrants, have no idea what it's like to go and live somewhere else.

SellingInMyBlood

I don't know exactly what you are hinting at.