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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Hilary Mantel makes a good point

544 replies

juneau · 19/02/2013 08:15

She shouldn't have said it, since it's bitchy and uncalled for (and I actually find HM rather odd, if I'm honest), but after a good couple of years in the media spotlight I struggle to think of one thing the Duchess of Cambridge thinks or believes in. She never gives an opinion, she barely speaks, she just looks pretty and smiles.

OP posts:
seeker · 20/02/2013 08:45

Cameron knows his demographic. He knows that no one ever went broke underestimating the public taste.

As this thread amply illustrates.

sieglinde · 20/02/2013 08:54

Glad to see lots of sensible people here already. Mantel's piece was smart, brave, and funny, and actually very sympathetic to KM. (and I am not Mantel's No 1 Fan, as many know).

The disgusting misogyny she's attracted about her weight etc is an absolute disgrace. One comment in the Times even called her a witch.

Anyone who hasn't read her actual piece should do so before commenting. Cameron is a knob for commenting on something of which he is ignorant - but we knew that already Grin

seeker · 20/02/2013 09:01

Here is the Guardian's editorial. Warning. A few long words....
"
There is a generous explanation of yesterday?s sudden furore about what Hilary Mantel said about the Duchess of Cambridge ? a brief medialand frenzy into which both David Cameron and Ed Miliband foolishly allowed themselves to be drawn ? and then there is the one that is probably true.
The generous explanation is that this is half-term. The rich and powerful are on trade missions to India and ski breaks in the Alps. It is therefore a bit of a slow news week, with the press scraping around for things to write about. In such circumstances, there is a gut logic in tapping into the media?s monarchy mother lode, and fanning a controversy about what one of our leading writers has said about one of the most newsworthy royals ? even though it was actually said two weeks before it erupted on to the front pages yesterday.
The true explanation is that Ms Mantel?s supposed attack on the duchess is no such thing. If you trouble to read the richly textured lecture it soon becomes clear that, far from being ?completely misguided? (Cameron) or ?pretty offensive? (Miliband), it is a thoughtful and sympathetic reflection about the duchess and about royal women down the ages. To describe it as either ?venomous? (Daily Mail) or ?outrageous? (Daily Telegraph) is simply silly.
Ms Mantel?s subject is the way that the public relates to royalty, and to royal women in particular. She begins with Marie Antoinette and spends most of her lecture talking about Anne Boleyn and the other women whom she has brought back to life in her two widely read novels about the Tudors. In between she looks at Diana, Princess of Wales, and at her daughter-in-law. Today, as in the past, she argues, royal bodies, especially female ones, are in some sense public property, a claim that only someone who has not opened a newspaper in the past 30 years could dispute. There are, as one would expect from a double Man Booker prize winner, some strikingly expressed ideas, some of which (though not ?a royal lady is a royal vagina?) have been recycled to give the impression that the tone of the lecture is hostile to the duchess. This is manifestly untrue.
In fact, and in a manner which will delight semioticians, the response to Ms Mantel?s lecture embodies the very point that she is making. The royal body, she says, exists to be looked at. People stare at royal women, interpret them, derive entertainment from them, create fantasies about them. Sometimes, as Ms Mantel says, curiosity can become cruelty, even a form of sacrifice, certainly in Diana?s case, perhaps in that of the duchess. It is sad, as the lecture says, that the royals create such an uncontainable compulsion to comment. But in the light of yesterday?s brouhaha it can hardly be denied that they do."

scottishmummy · 20/02/2013 09:07

So let's see millyad,by being pg the big haired princesses now above comment forever?
Must we venerate her for being both decorous and pg.ne'er to comment,other than nicely
Your sycophantic view of royals makes your life easy=see em and say something nice?I'll pass on that edict

PetiteRaleuse · 20/02/2013 09:08

Well I suppose the whole sorry debate goes to prove once again that people do read and believe papers like the Fail. It's a little :( actually. It also shows that people still think it is perfectly acceptable to criticise people like Mantel purely based on her looks or voice. Like Beard before her.

In fact I'm a little disgusted by the reaction in many quarters to the lecture. On here, Twotter and elsewhere. It's like the press are deliberately trying to keep the people ignorant.

PetiteRaleuse · 20/02/2013 09:09

The Guardian's editorial is good, and there is a post in the Indie's Voices section which is very good too. But both those papers jumped on the Mail's bandwagon to start with. How embarassing.

scottishmummy · 20/02/2013 09:19

Gosh what a conspiracy theorist take on it.media don't keep people ignorant
People keep themselves ignorant,one has control over what ones reads and assimilate
if one actually reads the text it's apparent hm is being misrepresented,I suspect most haven't read it

mobilis · 20/02/2013 09:22

"I thought her attack on someone who is not in a position to fight back was uncalled for and rather cruel. Kate is paid to be a figure-head and as such not to voice an opinion."

I rather think that was the point Mantel was trying to make.

PetiteRaleuse · 20/02/2013 09:24

Exactly. The text is being misrepresented deliberately. As are many other texts, policies, speeches etc. Msrepresented and simplified by the tabloids for their readers, people who trust them to tell the truth for some reason and who won't go any further to get the truth, for whatever reason.

Yes, I believe that some areas of the media deliberately treat consumers as idiots, keeping them ignorant. It's not a conspiracy theory. It's obvious manipulation of their customers.

pofacedplot · 20/02/2013 09:29

What people like Millyad fail to see is how the real viciousness, vitriol and misogyny comes from people like him, who have not read the essay and who suddenly feel they have permission to do what they like to do best - release all their savagery on an older woman who is not pandering to the DM version of how she should look, who, even worse, is an uncompromising intellectual. Millyad isn't actually the worst offender here. But others and on Twitter have revealed the true emptiness of their fucking souls in some of their comments about Mantel, sparked by an essay they haven't even read. Fucking hateful people.

scottishmummy · 20/02/2013 09:30

Disagree.people can avail selves of a range of media,and opinion mostly free online
If they chose not to,or their interpretation of hm differs from her intent that's up to them
Media can shape opinion yes,but I'd argue one had to have that predilection to like monarchy to be of opinion Kate need protection and hm is attacking

pofacedplot · 20/02/2013 09:31

Just to reiterate that last sentence not directed at you, Millyad, but others here and on Twitter [a minority here thankfully but loads of them on Twitter]

pofacedplot · 20/02/2013 09:33

And Ed Miliband you TWAT.

PetiteRaleuse · 20/02/2013 09:33

We'll agree to disagree then :)

I like the royals, read the essay, and agree with HM. I find her very sympathetic to Kate in fact, and to the Queen, and others. I think very many people think what they are told to think by their paper of choice (online or physical). It's often the paper their parents read and they are used to. And I think the pedia abuse this power.

PetiteRaleuse · 20/02/2013 09:34

There was another thread yesterday that was pretty vile towards Mantel.

TunipTheVegedude · 20/02/2013 09:35

I am staggered by the thickness of David Cameron in wading in when he clearly hadn't even read it. He should bloody well apologise to Mantel.

senua · 20/02/2013 09:38

I have only skim-read HM's piece but don't like it. For example "And then the queen passed close to me and I stared at her. I am ashamed now to say it but I passed my eyes over her as a cannibal views his dinner, my gaze sharp enough to pick the meat off her bones. I felt that such was the force of my devouring curiosity that the party had dematerialised and the walls melted and there were only two of us in the vast room, and such was the hard power of my stare that Her Majesty turned and looked back at me, as if she had been jabbed in the shoulder; and for a split second her face expressed not anger but hurt bewilderment."
The Queen has been hard-stared by half the planet for sixty years: does HM really think that HMQ was hurt and bewildered. Utter nonsense!

Anyway, all this looking back and historical discussions are a bit irrelevant. It used to be that the female was usually the consort (i.e. the arm candy) because the boys got the top job. Now that we are doing away with male precedence we are into a whole new ballgame.

PetiteRaleuse · 20/02/2013 09:38

I think very many people who should know better shoul dbe apologising to Mantel.

scottishmummy · 20/02/2013 09:39

Not staggered by Cameron thickness at all -his ineptitude and general fuckwittery is all too apparent
See it on near daily basis as pm and via his govt

TunipTheVegedude · 20/02/2013 09:42

ISWYM ScottishMummy, but running a government is hard, this should have been easy, and he is meant to have a flipping first from Oxford ffs! (How did he get that? How?)

PetiteRaleuse · 20/02/2013 09:42

:o

PrincessFiorimonde · 20/02/2013 09:44

I was amused at Cameron's reference to 'Princess Kate'. Did he think that term (never heard it used before) makes him sound like he luvs her cos she's another 'people's princess'?

TunipTheVegedude · 20/02/2013 09:45

yes, I think so. Channelling Tony.

seeker · 20/02/2013 09:45

Cameron isn't being thick. He knows perfectly well that the vast majority of people will not read the article. He has left an impression in the minds of the great british public that he has leapt to protect a defenceless beautiful princess from the attack of a fat, ugly, intellectual, feminist.

And the is no combination of characteristics that said great British public hate more than a fat, ugly, intellectual feminist. So he will have done himself no harm at all.

TanteRose · 20/02/2013 09:46

What a knobber