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Grayling defending smacking

999 replies

seventiesgirl · 03/02/2013 11:38

Never did him any harm apparently. The tory party are such a bunch of tossers. Whatever next?

OP posts:
PolkadotCircus · 07/02/2013 12:00

Nobody has berated me for views on other threads btw.

mathanxiety · 07/02/2013 15:14

Once, when he had hurt his brother, I told him he was going to have a punishment but he could choose either a smack or no chocolate for a day (hardly awful...although he does love chocolate). He thought and went for neither (optimistically). I explained that that was not fair and he had to choose one. He then asked for a "not hard" smack. I said it had to be hard enough to hurt otherwise it was not a punishment at all and would he prefer no chocolate. He still opted for the smack and held out his hand. He was smacked and was upset for about 30 seconds. Later I asked him if he was pleased that he chose the smack and he said yes, as he could have chocolate tomorrow.

Larry:

In the first place, how does hurting a child teach him anything about hurting his brother?
Second, the answer 'neither' is not as much optimistic as revealing -- this was a child who did not understand why a punishment might have been necessary or what was unacceptable about hurting a brother.
Third, even after the smack on the hand, the child still did not apparently feel remorse -- was interested primarily in the prospect of chocolate.

(Fourth, although you don't say if this was dinosaur boy hurting the younger boy, if it is, then smacking doesn't seem to be having much of an effect.)

Xenia · 07/02/2013 15:15

I am being misrepresented above... I have spent 28 years with children. The fact men and women might work does not mean they are never with their children or see them for brief periods for short bed time kisses. We're up every 2 or 3 hours every night breastfeeding twins etc.

We all smacking is in essence failure and never does anyone any good. If you cannot be with your children unless you resort to physical violence with them may be you need to minimise your time with them a bit to ensure you don't get to the point of violence, whether premeditated or otherwise.

duchesse · 07/02/2013 15:21

This just about sums up my attitude to the ownership of small pets by children too young to look after them properly. My view on pets is that if your child is under 11/12 at the very youngest, then the parents have to view themselves as the guardian and keeper of the pet. Expecting an 8 year old to look after a pet properly without immense amounts of supervision is a recipe for disaster.

mathanxiety · 07/02/2013 15:28

Larry, re risk -- if a toy is so dangerous that it could put an eye out then it is not a toy you should allow a child to play with.

Nothing in your post about the benefits of risk indicates it is acceptable to allow a child to play with a toy that could do that much damage if he, using only child strength, decided to use it inappropriately.

You stated you were concerned about the brother being blinded so clearly you were concerned about whether an eyelid Hmm was strong enough to protect against the hard pointy plastic.

As for your sensible risk assessment, it seems everything you assumed was completely wrong. You hauled the child out of the tub and smacked him because you were wrong therefore.

If there was no risk of blindness and an eyelid offers enough of a barrier then why did you smack your child?
If there was a risk of blinding someone else then was allowing the toy was too much of a risk? (and as I pointed out earlier, there was also the risk of burdening your son with guilt over seriously injuring his brother).
If you smacked because the boy was hurting his brother then how is hurting him in turn going to teach him anything except that when he gets older he doesn't have to abide by the same rules children apparently must follow?

mathanxiety · 07/02/2013 15:38

I am logical and I feel I can deduce from discussions with my children what they "get" and what they don't.

But in the case of the dino in the bathtub you were pretty sure the older one was about to injure the eye of the younger one, having been pretty sure (I assume) when deciding what toys to allow in the tub that the dinosaur would not pose a problem.

You are still pretty sure sitting down inadvertently on a sharp object would only yield a miniscule mark, nothing to worry about, and you are pretty sure your two children, the older one being 3.8 and the younger one obv being younger, will not slip in the sudsy tub and land on it. If you are sure the children will not come to harm in the tub then why do you supervise? If you think supervision is a good idea, how fast do you believe your reaction time might be to a slipping child? How effective might you be in reacting if you were already (for instance) helping one out of the tub and had your hands full?

RaisinBoys · 07/02/2013 15:50

Larrygrylls I agree with noddy - if you did that "experiment" with your child then something's gone badly wrong.

But at least you admit that you hit "hard enough to hurt". At last some honesty.

Smackers upthread seem intent on peddling the myth of a "light tap".

Couldn't disagree with you more though.

A bit of a Hobson's choice for your child!

mathanxiety · 07/02/2013 15:57

"You, in giving an extended lecture about your understanding of child development in an authoritative tone, invited me to clarify my position because you were effectively telling me I was wrong to even comment on the idea that a child can not possibly understand the word or concept 'danger'. I know I am not and I think it is unhelpful to suggest I am...

I have shared my own challenges and said even though I know all this I get my language use wrong in moments of stress and I have shared my history. Your posts read like informational handouts from the children's centre, yet you think I am the one flashing my qualifications ???"

Thunks -- What you feel about my posts and what I posted are two separate things. I did not invite you to say anything. I did not effectively tell you anything.

You did post about your qualifications and years of professional experience here, so yes, you are the one here who flashed her qualifications and I think I am justified in thinking that you did that because that is exactly what you did. Nobody asked you for details of your career. If you felt you were being challenged on a professional level, again, what you feel and what is actually happening are two separate things.

How my posts may read is in the eye of the beholder. You have the right to disagree with me and I have the right to disagree with you. What you shouldn't do is read what isn't actually there.

"Also, where are YOU on this thread, if you are so unhappy with professionalised postings?"
I'm not sure exactly what you are asking here.

When it comes to dealing with children every parent is in exactly the same boat facing exactly the same challenges, more or less, according to individual circumstances.

duchesse · 07/02/2013 15:58

Seems to me Larry that your kid decided "well, I can take the smack and I still get the chocolate". Win-win for him. Good to see the thumping's working... Hmm

larrygrylls · 07/02/2013 16:04

Math,

I cannot be bothered with responding to every detail of your post, partly because I have already done so and partly because you are comparing apples with chocolate in your critique of my understanding of my children and my risk assessment.

However, my presence was clearly a part of the risk assessment. I think that, with reference to risk that most parents feel are clearly within the normal spectrum, that you are overprotective. Maybe you have your reasons, maybe you have had some unfortunate experiences that have skewed you that way. Just about every toy for any age beyond a baby can cause injury by misuse or shear bad luck. The corner of a lego brick in the eye can be as damaging as the horn of a plastic dinosaur, a toy wendyhouse if picked up and used as a weapon could be severely injurious. I do not believe in 100% safety proving my house, I believe in teaching my children. What actually occurred was a teaching experience and no one got hurt.

"smacked because the boy was hurting his brother then how is hurting him in turn going to teach him anything except that when he gets older he doesn't have to abide by the same rules children apparently must follow?"

This logic, used so often on these threads, is plain wrong. Every parent who uses any form of punishment teaches the child that the punishment is a response to the child's action and not vice versa, and they totally understand it. Would you expect your teenager when he is big enough to put YOU on the naughty step (to think about what you did)? No, because you would expect him to observe a power structure with you at the top. And if you talk about him learning reason blah blah blah, what if he honestly believed you had been naughty and deserved it? Fair enough then? And if not, why not? And I will not teach my child not to hit, I will teach him not to hit first or start a fight. If someone hurts him or anyone smaller, I would be very proud of him if he defended himself or that person.

"In the first place, how does hurting a child teach him anything about hurting his brother?
Second, the answer 'neither' is not as much optimistic as revealing -- this was a child who did not understand why a punishment might have been necessary or what was unacceptable about hurting a brother.
Third, even after the smack on the hand, the child still did not apparently feel remorse -- was interested primarily in the prospect of chocolate."

Haha, re revealing. This was a version of the "marshmallow" test. A lot of children when asked if they wanted one marshmallow now or two in 5 minutes first tried it on with wanting two now. And I am pleased he had got over what was a small misdemeanour and a small punishment. I am glad it was all about the chocolate. I don't want to impose some sort of catholic guilt on him. There are many situations in life where you have to make a choice between two negative outcomes and it is still better to have a choice than none. Think speeding and an education course or 3 points on your licence.

larrygrylls · 07/02/2013 16:12

And....

Controlled crying. Anyone who is against smacking should also be against this. It is demonstrably cruel and has been scientifically shown to be effective only in that it works. The baby's cortisol levels rise every time and they do not adjust to being abandoned. I smack (on the back of the hand) but I never countenanced controlled crying beyond five minutes or refusing to pick up a clearly distraught baby. There are ways of teaching a child to settle which do not include allowing a small defenceless child "to cry it out".

And, as for leaving a one year old in a nursery from 8-6, as many parents now do, I find this equally wrong. It is unnatural and young children find the environment stressful. Some people have to do it and I appreciate that. It does not make it any better from the baby's/young child's perspective though.

Anyone who thinks either of the two above are absolutely fine but are against smacking per se are completely hypocritical or delusional. If there is proper scientific evidence against any practices, it is against the above two, not against smacking.

But how about we accept that many decent parents make their own decisions for their children which they feel are right for them and reserve our howls of "abuse" for the truly abusive and neglectful parents of which, sadly, there are many.

noddyholder · 07/02/2013 16:14

So you decided 5 minutes was ok? How did you come to that conclusion?

RaisinBoys · 07/02/2013 16:16

Xenia I don't know anything about you but you do not need to defend your childcare or work choices because of snide and offensive comments from others on here.

The issue under discussion is smacking polka and larry. That's it!

larrygrylls · 07/02/2013 16:20

Noddy,

When you decide to contribute more than one judgmental line and a passive aggressive sad face to the discussion, I will address your questions.

If either of my sons had been crying in a clearly emotionally distressed manner even for one minute, my wife or I would have been in there. Five minutes was a general rule we used for "normal" crying.

larrygrylls · 07/02/2013 16:21

Raisin,

Are you going to give us a smack then, depending on the MN majority view? That is how it sounds.

And surely a perspective depends from whence it comes?

noddyholder · 07/02/2013 16:22

Grin You are a piece of work I didn't know you were a man. Passive aggressive? Where?

larrygrylls · 07/02/2013 16:25

Noddy,

The kind of post: "I feel sorry for your children" or "you really need to review your parenting style" followed by that stupid blue sad emoticon which should be reserved for teenagers is almost the definition of passive aggressive.

XBenedict · 07/02/2013 16:26
Grin
noddyholder · 07/02/2013 16:27

Well coming from you I will take no notice. better than just aggressive though eh? What is a man who hits children even doing here?

Miggsie · 07/02/2013 16:27

The only thing worse than smacking is the parent who does it saying "it's for your own good".

RaisinBoys · 07/02/2013 16:28

larrygrylls

Someone must have given you the impression that you are (a) funny (b) clever (c) entertaining. You're none of the above.

If you'd read upthread you would see that, unlike you, I don't believe in hitting anyone let alone my children

It is you who in your earlier post larrygrylls Thu 07-Feb-13 10:52:49 hits your child "hard enough to hurt".

Grow up!

larrygrylls · 07/02/2013 16:31

Raisin,

That was what your post said. I just giggled a bit at it, it was genuinely unintentionally funny.

larrygrylls · 07/02/2013 16:32

"The issue under discussion is smacking polka and larry. That's it!"

RaisinBoys · 07/02/2013 16:36

Oh please!!

Here is my post properly punctuated for the comedian on the thread;

"The issue under discussion is smacking, polka and larry. That's it!

larrygrylls · 07/02/2013 16:39

Raisin,

I know...hence unintentionally. I knew what you meant. Did someone extract the part of your brain responsible for a sense of the ridiculous?

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