Grayling defending smacking

[seventiesgirl]

Never did him any harm apparently. The tory party are such a bunch of tossers. Whatever next?

"I have never and will never coax,bargain or beg.The naughty step is seen as stigmatising and is now frowned upon,I'd never withhold food,continuously making threats or replacing fear with fear doesn't sit comfortably with me,ditto shouting and taking things that aren't mine to take.

What do you do that doesn't damage if a child is say rude or naughty and doesn't listen to what you have to say,isn't materialistic and can come back with clever answers time after time?"

I think amazing covered quite a few techniques when she explained how she got children to put on their shoes. However, here are a some methods to improve behaviour.

1. Routine (or Rhythm if you are more lentil weavery). Day follows night, the sun always comes up and in our family we always do things in this order and this way. There is no point arguing about putting your shoes on or when you get to look at a screen, you might as well argue that the rain should fall upwards.

2. Manage environment. (See any montessori book on childcare, or ask a supermarket designer - environment changes behaviour). Remove any physical barriers that will stop a child from being able to behave in the right way e.g. make sure their coat has a proper hanging tag and their peg is at the right level if you don't want them to drop it on the floor. Reduce toy clutter. Rotate toys. Reduce media.

3. Ritual - The pretty side of routine.

4. Show children how they should act/distract then/divert them. "This is how we touch the cat". "You need to come with me and help me sweep the floor/move these heavy boxes etc. etc." Also nothing wrong with removing a toy from a child that they are showing that they aren't developmentally advanced enough to use safely/physically separating children who aren't getting on together/ending play time when it has got out of hand. It's the action, not the drama of 'losing it' or 'smacking' that will teach the child.

5. Be aware of what level of behaviour can be expected of a child at a certain age. Don't be surprised if they are unable to cope with a situation that is beyond their level of development.

6. Provide and enforce use of a calm down/time out space. - The point is to learn to reboot and reset. I don' think children want to behave badly, but often they need to change gear before they can behave well. We all need to learn to do this.

7. If a child is rude/answers back, just don't give it any mileage. Don't fuel the fire. Just allow a younger child to let out their emotions in a safe place, ideally where others won't be inconvenienced (although this is not always possible) and then move them along with their day, and tell an older child that you will talk when they have calmed down. This works for adults too. Equally, just listening quietly until somebody runs out of steam can be very effective. You aren't giving in to an unreasonable demand, just listening. You then teach them how to unpick a problem and find a solution. See "How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk" book.

At no point in any of this are you controlling your child with a long monologue on what they should or shouldn't be doing or giving in to unreasonable demands.

8. Let your child experience the natural consequences of acting in a certain way.

9. Endeavour to keep sense of humour intact.

10. Model the behaviour you want your child to copy.

I actually agree that society has decided to drop smacking very quickly without giving much thought to teaching alternative methods.

That is pretty much what I did/do however I feel we're moving into new territory as they're getting older and I'm questioning our methods as what you've described seems to be working less, maybe it's a phase.

The short,sharp tap approach sees an awful lot less complicated and unpleasant to be frank-have had to threaten to rehome dd's gerbils this week ,surely that is no better tan a tap?Has worked though - for now!!

Merry good post,it's the quickness that has bothered me,exactly that.I feel that as these threads get more hysterical people don't look at what parents are doing instead and the not smacking brings frustration from parents ill prepared who then engage in procedures just as damaging.

Love that book,need to dip back in,got the Sibling one yesterday- seems quite perceptive so far.

Well, I think that would be an appropriate response if she were refusing to look after them - do you mind telling me what she did?

I can see why you might feel like hitting an over 8. I just don't understand the point when it will only be a few years until they are almost matching you in size and strength.

I have heard Chris Grayling speak and his views on smacking are not where the tosser-ness ends. He's an utter dick splash. I have never voted Tory in my life, though work with lots of them on a regular basis - the majority of whom are decent people with considerably more moderate opinions than those of Mr Grayling. Some of them will have smacked their children, some of them won't have.

But If smacking turns children into the kind of hard-line, arrogant, obnoxious, unempathic man that Chris Grayling seems to be, then i will be resisting it with every fiber of my being.

POLKA In haste as a leaving to see my Ma, but wanted to check you HAD seen my apology to you for if you felt offended by me (pg.25) as that stuff matters to me, but last night/this morn could not see any reply from you - hence checking. And quickest way of checking (given am v pushed for time but genuinely does matter to me that someone sees an apology) was using advanced search function (IE 30 seconds vs ages scrolling through). Can see no acknowledgement from you of apology, but was even more surprised to see that in total you have 74 posts - i.e. over 10% of entire thread? - on here.

If I can have the courtesy to apologise if I caused you to feel offended (even though we obviously do have VERY diff POV's on matter in question), can't help but think that out of 74 posts that you would - presumably? - have the courtesy to acknowledge that? Seems to get right to the heart of issue/s discussed on thread - children learn by example. Be that by being hit or be that by observing and being raised with manners/courtesy. .

I'd afraid I stopped reading your posts after the abusive post in which you ranted,called me thick,pitied my children etc,etc.

I would never speak to anybody like that and to be blunt felt your tone was slightly unhinged and best be ignored.I also felt your " apology" if that is what is was wasn't actually an apology as you seemed to feel the need to justify your actions and lecture me further.

I won't be bullied not by having insults thrown at me or for turning the other cheek and ignoring hysterical behaviour.

I only reported that post as it was the worse, I also had pms from other posters who had done the same.It was deleted I'm pretty sure because it broke guidelines and for that reason alone.

Great post merrymouse I think I adhere to that method (except the modelling good behaviour bit but I'm working on it).

To accept smacking is to accept the thin end of the wedge of abuse. A parent psychologically accepts that their body can physically hurt a child and that it works to keep them in control. The misconception is that it's forgotten 'line in the sand'. It isn't - I was smacked only twice in my life by a parent and remember both incidents vividly. Those that are smacked regularly build an emotional defence that can lead to a barrier between parent and child and this can escalate to breaking the bond.

Right, so have we got to the bottom of all this smacking nonsense yet? To smack or not to smack, that is the eternal question.

Ooh, forgot the most important, and perhaps most tricky solution to improving child's behaviour - 8 hour's sleep for parent.

Merry she came back from a sleepover and had to do homework.I warned her before that she would have to do it if she went as the rest of the weekend was manic.

Any how when I went to pick her up she was rude when I asked her to find her jacket,was vile to her brother in the car all the way home(really vile) then refused to do her homework.I explained in a calm manner how she was making us feeling in a calm way both times.

She continued to rant,I said she wouldn't be able to go on sleepovers in the future if homework was an issue,she said she didn't care so I said no Brownies this week,don't care.

In the midst of this she said some nasty things to ds and threw a fit over ds chewing during tea?I said if she didn't care she was too young to have gerbils so they would need to be re homed-I meant it. Her gerbils are her pride and joy. She then said how mean I was and asked what I had as a punishment as a child.I said a smack,she said grandma was kinder- wtaf!Oh the irony!

So hit me with it,what do you do in these situations when you get the don't cares and it escalates?

She did do the homework and has been lovely since but I still feel I didn't handle it well-there was shouting involved and threatening her gerbils broke my heart.

Don't mean to derail but Mouse did ask.

I think she was hyped up from the sleepover.

If I'm 100% honest with myself, I can imagine doing exactly what you did.

However, putting on my perfect parent hat, I would ignore all the 'don't care' stuff, (With a 'ho hum' attitude - "whats that strange whiney noise in the background? never mind, isn't the sky pretty, what do you want for tea polkabrother?") and follow through with missing Brownies. (Using same attitude to deal with any 'missing Brownies' drama - too bad, so sad, I hear they found Richard III polkabrother!).

Re: homework - you could let her not do it/let her do it at last minute and take the consequences (might depend on how much you care about her doing her homework - are you prepared to let her take the hit - perhaps she could catch up on Brownie night?)

In future I would also enforce homework before sleepovers, if you think sleepovers are detrimental to her school work.

The whole idea is "your words are just washing over me and are completely pointless. See, I am a rock. I will always be there for you, but I'm not going to get involved with the drama when you are carrying on and I will follow through".

I think I would also allow her to calmly come up with a suggestion to solve the problem i.e. sleepovers are really exciting, but she has to do school work and be polite to her family and not flounce at pick up time - what does she thing she should do - let her own the solution as a problem solver and generally pleasant and polite person, who unfortunately acted out of character on this occasion.

If there is a problem of general rudeness and it has become a habit, I would draw up a list of expectations, and have some family wide penalties, that every one has to abide by, a bit like a swear box. I would try to be light hearted about it because I think, for children, bad manners are often a habit like nail biting, rather than something deliberately malicious.

Hope this helps!

Polka, if you have not effectively utilised other methods then that is your issue.

Its not fair to say there are none. Its your job as a parent to source info and advice and useful tools.

It sounds a bit like you are allowing those suituations to happen perhaps not taking into account your role in them.

Do you have anything that video records? Next time she does it try and record both of you but mainly you obviously do it without her knowing.

Then watch it back,you may see what I mean but even if you don't its a great way to see what you could have done differently.

It does actually a lot,many thanks!

Will remember the rock thing in particular.

Merry that is more or less what we do here too, though the thing I find hardest is when he is aggressive and violent to his baby brother. I mean, I get it - he is jealous, it is normal, it is fine.. but it is the hardest parenting challenge in terms of being calm in the moment that it happens. I will admit that the lovely calm "thinking corner" that we used to bring him to all lentil-weavery has become a bit more of a strangled/barked "corner!!!!" while pointing in no uncertain terms and he has been put in it when he has refused to go.

I saw something nice on Pinterest about a "hush bottle" - basically like a glittery snowshaker type thing you make out of putting lots of glitter into a bottle and that you use to teach relaxing OUT of situations where there is conflict so that it can then be something to go to when there's a need.

The "parenting book" I most value one that places a lot of focus on parents learning how to remain calm within themselves when parenting challenges arise, and using that calmness to stay in touch with their highest values as parents and most dearly held desires for their children.

Far too often in this debate, people miss the most obvious point (to me). Smacking may happen when a parent feels out of control but feeling out of control is not itself a problem. Feeling out of control and overwhelmed and useless in the face of seemingly inexplicable child behaviour is pretty much normal across the board as far as I can see. Find me someone who hasn't felt at the end of their tether and I will find you a liar.

What you choose to do with that feeling is important, but no one is going to be perfectly true to their ideals all the time. I don't smack but I have shouted and lost my temper and said things like "Right, I've had it, do that once more and you're not playing with Fireman Sam again today" even though I know, 100%, that my nearly 3 year old a) wasn't being wilfully naughty; b) isn't likely to understand half of that sentence and c) I am not modelling the sort of interaction I value or developing our relationship as I would like.

This is what I mean by saying come on, let's be human about this. Outright condemnation can be just so over the top, particularly when you consider that the vast majority of us 70's/80's kiddos were smacked, so being human, it is part of our behavioural repertoire of parenting that we learned from our parents. That doesn't mean we are bound to go along with it, we can (and most of us do) choose a different way.. but there's no great need to be smug about that as if that choice means the alternatives are foolproof.

I never understand why people say smacking isn't a good disciplinary method "because if it worked you wouldn't have to do it more than once"... I don't think there are ANY foolproof methods in parenting where "if it works you wouldn't have to do it more than once". It's all trial and error based on working hypotheses of what is needed in any given moment.

Thunks wow,what a fab post,you pretty much summed up what I was trying to say in my clumsy way- sooo getting that book!

Just saw your discussion Polkadot. Have you come across this? I haven't read it but colleagues who work with teenagers with severe behavioural problems say it is brilliant and I've just spotted there it was voted best parenting book on here so I'd bet there are threads on it somewhere. A friend just mentioned it to me this morning coincidentally.

Oh yes - you always have to remember "rinse and repeat". You don't use the method once and your child is magically transformed, or read a parenting book and suddenly you no longer lose your temper. It's always a work in progress.

(I think at some point you are no longer legally responsible for them though? then maybe they have grandchildren and you get to feed those children sweets and let them watch TV all day? that is true isn't it?)

Yes we have it and it is fab,there is a crib sheet on here somewhere for quick and easy reference.Have just bought the Sibling Rivalry one,only on the first chapter but it looks good so far.To be honest I think I need to reread How to Talk as have lost my way a bit with dd atm.

God you master one stage then another one hits you.I'm suspecting hormones with dd may be coming into play here.She can be absolutely adorable honestly!

Yes my grandchildren are going to be the most spoilt grand kids on the planet.

Funnily enough I apparently was a major pita,very similar.I get a lot of like mother,like daughter comments.My mother seemed extremely firm as a child but is soooo soft with the grand kids,she utterly spoils them rotten.

Funnily enough now I have a mini me she seems like a saint when I was a child now!

Stoic, I also reported your post from two days ago as it was very offensive and abusive indeed. In fact it was that post that made me lose the desire to get involved in any of these debates ever again. Got to say I think it's ironic that alot of the chat on here two days ago was about smacking being the same as abuse...and that is exactly what was coming from some posters (the self same ones who were likening smacking to abuse, in some cases). We all 'lose control' and say the wrong thing in the heat of the moment, but to then be hounding Polka for an acknowledgement so publicly (and basically saying she has no manners for not graciously accepting it...and insulting her as a parent AGAIN) undermines its sincerity somewhat. You strike me as someone spoiling for a fight and rather volatile.

Good to see though that the tone has been raised since Monday with some sensible debate going on again.

The sooner we ban even the very very limited lawful smacks still allowed which leave no mark (and I wish someone would video themselves smacking a child and upload it for access here so we can see the loving lawful way they carry out this type of physical violence against small children so we can judge for ourselves how wonderful the smackers are. Perhaps Chris G's children would secretly film him doing it to show the world what a great method it is.

If you start going down the road of hitting children there is no going back. How can you tell a child to behave and then wollop them - its just bonkers.

I am very nervous about joining this thread but I do have a question that I would like the advocates of smacking to answer -

Exactly how do you go about it? is it a spur of the moment smack any part of the body that is available or do you sit down and put the child over your knee so that they know that they are being punished?

I have only ever smacked DS1 once - he was 18 months old and about to do something extremely dangerous (I can't remember what), he was ignoring my alarmed shout. I felt so bad about it I read a book or two and I have never smacked again and never felt the need to.

I was smacked once as a child not by my parents but by a teacher who put me over his knee - it was humiliating - he got the sack for it and it didn't change my behaviour as, although I remember the humiliation, I cannot remember what my crime was.