(Warnng upsetting) Little boy murdered for failing to learn passages from the Koran

[ReallyTired]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-20920649

This news story made me want to cry. I feel its tragic that no one managed to prevent the horrific abuse. I feel that the entire UK let this little boy down.

This case is as bad as Baby P or Victoria Climbe.

[Snorbs]

You can say the same for any holy book that claims to be divinely inspired. For example both the Torah and the Bible are notable for their lack of many basic moral rules such as "Slavery's bad, don't do it" or "if you get raped you shouldn't be forced to marry your rapist".

[MiniTheMinx]

So true Snorbs. Which is why they make brilliant historical records and little else. If you think about slavery in the time at which the bible is written, slavery was an economic materialist desire of the ruling class. Men expected to have their book condone the practice of slavery.

[BegoniaBampot]

Think culture can come into these things and it's not necessarily religion. I have Muslim friends, many more moderate Muslims who probably just happen to be born in a Muslim culture or country but don't practice it strictly and seem to lead more western style lives. but from having made some strict Muslim friends from Pakistani background, I've been surprised that violence, coercion and bullying seems to be accepted and encouraged at least in some of the community. These friends have experienced domestic violence amongst their parents, siblings and with their husbands, arranged marriages to cousins etc, know people involved in honour killings. I'd say there are much stronger expectations and attempts to control than you would expect in a western culture. I'm not saying every person from Pakistani background conforms to this or agrees to this behaviour but I think to say culture doesn't play a part is wrong. Not very PC I know, but it's my friendship with these women and what they have told me that has made me that has made me start to question this culture when before I was really defensive of people saying negative stuff and accusing them of just being bigoted or intolerant.

[CoteDAzur]

"I still think there is something in Islam that just hasn't moved into the 21st century and it is stuck where the church was 500 years' ago."

Do you think that has anything to do with the fact that Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity?

[CoteDAzur]

"Well if it is the word of god, without cultural or historical bias"

If God were to send down some instructions to a group of people, it would have to be relevant to that time and culture, so no, I don't agree with you that such a message would be without cultural or historical bias.

(I'm a lifelong atheist, btw).

[CoteDAzur]

"Why will Muslims not accept it if members of their family want to become a christian?"

Do you know every Muslim person in the entire world that you are so sure Muslims will not accept family members converting to another religion?

I know several Muslims who have converted to other religions and vast numbers of Muslims who are openly atheist. Older members of their families are not thrilled but they accept it. Younger members of these families don't really care one way or the other.

[CoteDAzur]

"It is a tremenous feat to memorise the entire Koran."

If you read even the first two lines of the article, you would see that she wanted the boy to memorise passages from the Quran, not the entire thing.

[ReallyTired]

"Do you think that has anything to do with the fact that Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity? "

I believe the issue is education rather than religion itself. Most Islamic countries are third world countries which struggle to educate their population to 18. The lack of education makes people into narrow minded fanastics rather than Islam.

Christian countries like Uganda have as many human rights abuses as the most brutal of islamic countries. (Executing gays) Infact the USA has dubious human rights record. (Executing or life imprisonment people for crimes committed as minors, or during postnatal pychosis, torturing muslims at Quantano Bay)

I believe that the entire UK is responsible for Yassam death becuase we voted for a govenant that has made huge cuts. We have not invested enough in child protection and training. I am sure that many devout muslims would agree with me that we as a nation failed this little boy.

[CoteDAzur]

My point is that Christianity was going through its dark ages 600 years ago. Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity and is arguably going through a similar period. It is not that surprising.

[CoteDAzur]

"I believe that the entire UK is responsible for Yassam death becuase we voted for a govenant that has made huge cuts"

Oh come on.

You may have noticed that the whole world is going through a little something referred to as a terrible economic crisis. Whichever government you voted for would have had to make huge cuts.

[MiniTheMinx]

I was saying that the so called"word of god" does have a cultural and historical bias, so i think we agree

I agree, the cuts that are being made to services along with the rhetoric of individualism over any kind of collective and social responsibility is hardening people and depriving others of the help they need. I suspect that actually western culture has a lot to answer for too.

[ReallyTired]

"You may have noticed that the whole world is going through a little something referred to as a terrible economic crisis. Whichever government you voted for would have had to make huge cuts. "

As a country we have had to make cuts. The difficulty is deciding where the cuts are made. Its stupid we have not chosen to raise the base rate of income tax to ease the burden of cuts. I feel that child protection should have been ring fenced from the cuts.

I agree that western cuture has a lot to answer for. If this poor child had been murdered in Iran then maybe we could blame Islam, however he was murdered in a mainly Christian country full of people (with lots of different religious views) who failed him.

Muslims with a similar level of education are no more backwards than Christians. Christian illiterates in the US are no different to uneduated muslims. It detracts from the debate to insult Islam and its adherents.

"My point is that Christianity was going through its dark ages 600 years ago. Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity and is arguably going through a similar period. It is not that surprising. "

That is nothing more than relgious bigotory. Uganda is still in the dark ages.

[CoteDAzur]

"Religious bigotry"

I come from a Muslim family, a Muslim country, and about half of my friends are Muslim. I have no "bigotry" whatsoever towards Islam.

What I have said is a fair assessment of the situation. Islam is going through a stage that Christianity also went through, about 600 years ago. Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity. This is hardly a coincidence.

Islam will also have its Enlightenment, but it will take time. Extremism will unfortunately first have to run its course. Let us all hope that it won't need as much bloodshed as the French Revolution to get started.

[MiniTheMinx]

CoteDAzur, can I ask you, just out of interest, do you think that if the Quran is the spoken word of God? would it follow then that the Quran is the third book of the bible?

I know Christianity has a "bloody" past with wars and the crusades but I had never thought that perhaps Islam is going through a similar process. Interesting. If that is the case could it be related to wealth of the nation/culture/people in terms of economic wealth and education, social power at the level of nations but also at an individual level. We like to think that everyone in the UK has equal rights and opportunities but its clearly not really the case.

[ReallyTired]

Christians still do bloody things. I don't think that we can claim to be enlightened and bomb the shit out of loads of third world countries, killing innocent. There is no way the west can claim the moral high ground when our country invaded Iraq on false pretences. (No one seems bothered about North Korea because they don't have oil.) In recent years more muslims civilians have been killed by western countries than the other way round.

I believe that Islamic countries will improve their standard of living when everyone without learning difficulties can read and write to an adult standard. The biggest issue is a minority of men who feel girls should not go to school. The UK improved dramatically when universal education was introduced in victorian times.

There are countries with religions that are thousands of years old like China. China is not a particularly civilised place to live. Their enlightment will come when education and affulence improves. China is at the stage England was 200 years old during the industrial revolution.

[CoteDAzur]

Mini - re "do you think that if the Quran is the spoken word of God?"

I don't believe in God, so no, don't think Quran is the spoken word of God.

"... would it follow then that the Quran is the third book of the bible? "

... but if I believed in God, then yes, I'd say Quran would be the third book of the Bible.

There is huge overlap between the Quran and the Bible, and the God of Quran is very clear that it is the same God who previously sent Judaism and Christianity. Biblical characters appear often in the Quran, with almost identical stories. There is an entire chapter in the Quran dedicated to Mary, mother of Jesus Christ, talking about what a wonderful woman she is.

Don't ask me to quote verses, but Quran is pretty clear that Islam was sent because Christianity went astray, just like Christianity was sent because Judaism got diverted from the path God intended. Iirc correctly, God's main problems with Christianity were the Church & veneration of Jesus, and this is the reason that:
(1) Quran says all you need to understand & worship God is the Quran. No organisation like the Christian Church is needed. No priests etc to show you the way. It's between you and God.
(2) Quran is very clear that Mohammad is the messenger, and although a pretty good guy, not divine.
(3) Muslims are forbidden to draw or otherwise depict Mohammad (so that they can't make icons, paintings, and sculptures of him and worship him)
(4) It is forbidden to change even a letter of the Quran (presumably, so that the message can't be distorted like it was with God's previous efforts at communication)

Having read the Quran as well as the Bible, I have to say that Quran is slightly more reasonable. It features the occasional wife slapping and enemy slaying but at least doesn't call "righteous" a father who offers his virgin daughters for gang rape to an army.

"I had never thought that perhaps Islam is going through a similar process... could it be related to wealth of the nation/culture/people in terms of economic wealth and education, social power at the level of nations but also at an individual level. We like to think that everyone in the UK has equal rights and opportunities but its clearly not really the case."

I think of a religion as a living entity with a predictable life span that includes a Dark Ages period of extremist devotion at the expense of the real world, a fundamentalist (literal) reading of its scriptures, and a desire of its devotees to commit violence on behalf of their religion. Then comes bloodshed and lots of misery. And then through this struggle is born Enlightenment, where people decide to live and let live, everyone's religion to themselves etc.

Science, technology, and pursuit of all things material suffers during these Dark Ages, so it is not surprising that people are left poor and ignorant. You might invent a great new technology but if it's going to upset the mullahs and lead to your beheading, you won't come out with it. Or you may have discovered how the solar system works but if it's going to cause the Church to burn you at the stake, you will shut up about it. It is not surprising that Enlightenment is followed by increased education & wealth, but I don't think that these Dark Ages are caused by their lack.

[alemci]

Do you not think the bible is more balanced because it has been written by more than one person whereas the Koran 's only author was Mohammad.

I think the idea of needing a priest is more in catholisism, although the church can appear quite structured.

I think violence in the dark ages wasn't necessarily to do with the bible or christianity but the dog eat dog society - like the witch hunt in the crucible. People were superstitious and didn't have the understanding we do today in the West (we probably don't always get it right now). A bit like Ireland today and the protestants versus the catholics.

also the church was political. The bible was in Latin so people weren't really free to read it. That is why John Tindale in Henry VIII was such a radical printing the bible for every man to have access too.

Just clarify who the father is who offers his daughters for gang rape and I will have a look.

I think you are right about science and technology and keeping quiet. Then I suppose some people were brave such as Tindale and then he fled to Belgium I think and still ended up being burnt at the stake

[ReallyTired]

The Bible has been written over thousands of years. The old testament is considerably older than the new testament. The new testament takes prescence over the old. The old testament is a mixture of history, stories, pslams and advice. The Bible doesn't claim to be written directly by God, although it is inspired by God. No one knows who the authors were of parts of the old testament. The New testament has several authors as well, ie. four accounts of Jesus's life and letters from Paul. Again these are inspired by God rather than directly dicated by an Angel.

Much of the old testament is a historial record. We study the old testament to put the new testament into context. There are loads of things in the old testament that Christians are allowed to ignore.

These are the only things that Christians are required to do

"Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 ?Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law??

Jesus replied: ??Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.?[c] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ?Love your neighbor as yourself.?[d] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.?" Matthew 22:37-39

Christians are required to love Muslims as themselves. Unfortunately many christians have not been good at this. As difficult as it is, we are required to love Sara Ege as much as ourselves. We are also required to look after the foreigner in our own land.

We failed Yassam quite spectularly.

[CoteDAzur]

" bible is more balanced because it has been written by more than one person whereas the Koran 's only author was Mohammad."

(1) Mohammad was illiterate. Quran "came" to him over 20 years, and probably written down by others around him at the time.
(2) Assuming that we are talking about divine truth, what does "balanced" even mean? If God is communicating with people through a messenger, I'd think it would be better if he was writing it down himself.

"needing a priest is more in catholisism, although the church can appear quite structured."

Of course the Church is very structured. Before Enlightenment, its leaders had absolute power, and kept all of Europe in a state of terrible ignorance, under a reign of terror. All this, although Jesus didn't create any such structure as the Church.

You can almost understand how a frustrated God would say "Right. You imbeciles have to be told exactly what to do" and next sent down a very restrictive religion that controls every aspect of people's lives.

"I think violence in the dark ages wasn't necessarily to do with the bible or christianity"

The definition of the Dark Ages includes the intellectual blackout of the period and there is little argument as to why that happened. So yes, it had to do with fundamentalist, extremist version of Christianity of the time. Just like Islam of our day.

"Just clarify who the father is who offers his daughters for gang rape and I will have a look."

Really? You haven't heard of Lot?

When soldiers came knocking on his door, he proposed his two young virgin daughters to them if only they would leave him alone. I don't remember if it was after this that said daughters seduced him. Lovely man. Bible calls him a righteous man

Another Biblical story I have always found amusing was the bald guy who is teased by children and asks God to punish them. God sends down two she-bears to tear those children into bloody bits. Lovely God, too

[CoteDAzur]

"These are the only things that Christians are required to do"

Aside from suffering not a witch to live and murdering gay men?

Funny how you think you can pick and choose

[logitech56]

how did a thread about the horrific abuse of a child by his mother become a thread about religion?
What that woman did was evil. But the question in my mind is why did NO ONE pick up on what she was doing? the school, the boys father, the rest of the family? the neighbours? the school he was learning the Quran at? Because they will not sanction such behaviour by parents. Its just not acceptable in any society.

As a minor point, the memorising of the Quran is a massive intellectual acheivement. In pakistan, children who do this, receive the equivalent of a school leavers qualification. Its not something that can be done as a little aside, like ballet or scouts or drama classes.

[CoteDAzur]

Well, all that was said by everyone in the first two pages. And then went on to talk about some issues some of us find interesting.

I hope we have not terribly offended you by doing so.

[alemci]

Yes of course I have heard of Lot but I couldn't remember that incident specifically. I will look it up - thanks. Don't know who the bald guy is - please explain

You did say Mohammad was illiterate so maybe the scholars put their own spin on things and he couldn't read what they had written down, as could have happened with the bible.

also christianity isn't about doing good deeds although hopefully christians would want to help people in need, no one would ever reach God with Good deeds hence the birth and death of Jesus.

With the dark ages I meant that they may have carried on like this in the name of christianity but that was the power mad leaders using it to control people and I am sure not every member of the church was like that. Name of the Rose is an interesting take on this.

Back to the subject and yes society has failed this boy but the mum is to blame. I think social workers are so scared of doing anything because of the pc society which has been created.

[CoteDAzur]

I looked it up for you. The bald guy is called Elisha. He was teased for his bald head by children. So God sent down two bears to gruesomely murder 42 children. Yes, 42 little children. Yes, for the heinous crime of teasing a man for his baldness.

Well done to the God of Love.

"no one would ever reach God with Good deeds hence the birth and death of Jesus."

I honestly don't understand what the above sentence is to mean. And I have never understood what the death of Jesus was supposed to have achieved. God sires a human child whom he then leads to horrible torture and death so that he himself can then forgive humankind for their past & future sins

"With the dark ages I meant that they may have carried on like this in the name of christianity but that was the power mad leaders using it to control people and I am sure not every member of the church was like that. "

Of course not. And not every member of Iran's Islamic government is a misogynist religious nutcase. But the overall effect is the same - absolute authority through claiming a divine mandate, little freedom of any kind, and certainly no intellectual freedom except to toe the religion's line.