(Warnng upsetting) Little boy murdered for failing to learn passages from the Koran

[ReallyTired]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-20920649

This news story made me want to cry. I feel its tragic that no one managed to prevent the horrific abuse. I feel that the entire UK let this little boy down.

This case is as bad as Baby P or Victoria Climbe.

What a beautiful child.

I think this is just as serious as Baby Peter and Victoria Climbe. Hopefully any lessons that need to be will be learnt to prevent future tragedies.

I feel really sorry for him, I wish he had had the same opportunies my kids have. My son is 4. He learns arabic to recite Qu'ran too, I told him off for wriggling about in his chair the other day (he is expected to sit properly and not swing his legs or wriggle about at mainstream school) and his lovely teacher said "Never mind he is only little." He has male teacher who he likes so much he gave him his sweet last week (not one from a packet, his only one!).

Ok zorba. This has definitely confirmed how utterly stupid some people can be. No education. No desire to educate. No Muslim friends obviously. And a lovely sweeping generalisation yet again. Do have fun in your little bubble of ignorance guys, I'll just be hanging out with Al Qaeda and trying to ban Christmas from the uk so that Muslims don't get offended. Cheerio dearies.

I heard this story last night and it's so very very sad. DS1 is 7 and this morning when I woke him I gave him some extra hugs and kisses. I can't imagine how you could do that to a child. Poor little boy

Why are you shocked I'm asking them? Yes I am sure you are right it happens in the Hindu community as well. I remember reading a book about an Indian girl who converted to christianity.

I am quite well educated and you seem very judgemental. I am not having a go at you personally but questioning Islam. You haven't really answered my question about the conversions either.

I am sure you knew I didn't mean every Muslim in my first post and I explained my train of thought.

You did say earlier in the discussion that if a child knew the Koran off by heart then it was highly regarded by the community. Perhaps that is the problem. wouldn't it be better for the boy to be enjoying himself being a child rather than having to learn the Koran. This poor boy couldn't deliver the goods and she lost it.

Perhaps part of the problem is that there are communities where everyone is Muslim/Hindu/Whatever, and that if there was a lot more mixing and less ghetto-ising (is that a word?) between cultures then things would be a lot easier, in other words, you wouldn't have a situation where everyone knows everyone else's business (in this case, possibly, the level of Koran-learning that people's children do).

If someone lives in a "community" where lots of people are cousins to each other, or know each other from the village in Pakistan that their parents all came from or whatever, there must be a massive pressure to conform.

Isn't it a tragedy that a small child died at the hands of his mother?

mumble - there is no way on earth this woman beat her child to death because she wanted to conform, she was a child abuser pure and simple. In this country we do not tend to jump to criticise the religion of any child abusers except muslims. Being a muslim has nothing to do with being an abuser - your upbringing might, your psychological problems might, being beaten by your father and then by your brother might, but the big point is, these factors apply to many and most abusers whatever their background.

marsh - precisely. Has no one been reading the papers these last 12 months?? The number of child murders by parents/partners etc, especially of toddlers, is soaring in this country, and we need to ask ourselves why this is - not all rush to point the finger and spend our energy in cases exclusively where islam is involved.

Yes I realise that Knackered, I was just wandering down a bit of a side street there, opened up by a few previous posters.

I think people are conflating culture and religion. They are two separate and distinct things IMO.

I think SWs have been loathe to intervene at times for fear of being called racist. I also think that we have been too ambivalent when it comes to tackling abusive practices in some cultures. I'm thinking of something like FGM as a perfect example of this.

The mother didn't beat her son because she was Muslim but she did beat her son because she had certain (culturally ingrained) expectations about his behaviour. She beat her son because she wanted him to recite the Quran but her expectation was born out of cultural practice because not all Muslims can recite the whole of the Quran and neither are they expected to.

I can't believe that the father gets to walk away. He would have known.

"In this country we do not tend to jump to criticise the religion of any child abusers except muslims."

And Catholics?

Of course the father would have known.

PrinceRogersNelson people with autism sometimes do have obcessions. Mostly the obcessions are completely harmless like an obcession with dinosaurs or some interesting area of science or in the case of Temple Grandin an obcession with cattle welfare. 99.99999% autistic obcessions do not hurt anyone and people with autism do not commit child abuse. A person with autism is far more likely to be a victim of violence than to commit violence.

When you read of hideous things like the death of Baby P, Victoria Climbe or Yassam Ege its only natural to wonder what drives people. I don't understand why it was so important to Sara Ege for her son to learn the Koran off by heart to the point of missing school, yet alone being beaten.

Most Muslims I know in real life are balanced people. Sending a child to a religious school is no different to a christian family sending their child to sunday school. My muslim friends would never beat their children.

Fundamentalist christians have a repuation for child abuse.

www.openbible.info/topics/discipline_of_children

This poor little girl died as a result of her parents following the Pearl method of child rearing.

seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2016875109_hana28m.html

More about their hideous book train up a child loseraspie.hubpages.com/hub/Please-dont-read-To-Train-Up-a-Child

Child abuse is nothing to do with islam. Its right that the death of any child is discussed. The death of Yassam should have the same level of media coverage as Peter Connelly.

This is what I am trying to say here, learning the koran would have been important to the mother, but not important enough that she would beat him to death.

That happened because she was unhinged, damaged or an abuser. As far as I understand it, learning the koran isnt important enough to muslims that they would beat their kids - it just doesn't have that status - not obeying or not achieving or not performing or conforming on the other hand possibly could.

I live in an inner city "ghetto" (!) type area as some might call it, my neighbours send their children to learn the koran, same as 1000s round the country, but they dont kill them, beat them and neither do the vast majority hit them either.

This poor boys death isnt about the mothers religious beliefs, if she had the same background, genes, upbringing etc but was a christian or hindu, she would still have beaten her child to death, but for a different reason.

sorry really tired, I think I am agreeing with you - but what I'm trying to say is, I dont think learning koran was important enough to the mother to beat him that way - I think she became enraged, lost control, has psychological problems etc, the koran was the trigger, it could easily have been something else.

But these expectations have been passed on through the generations, this is cultural not religious IMO

mini - i agree, can even be just a single family passing these things on, not even a whole culture

I agree because culture can be experienced at the level of a family, institution, club, school, work place etc..... as well as society.

Waynetta, you seem to have missed my question in your hurry to pour scorn on Arabic-English translations.

My question is this: the half-dozen translations by Islamic scholars that I've seen say quite clearly that husbands are allowed to "beat" or "scourge" disobedient wives. You claim that is poor translation and, instead, a more accurate translation would be "tap".

Whose Arabic-English translation do you base that on? Someone else's or your own understanding of Arabic?

I worked in a primary school in the NW where all the children were Muslim. Several became hafiz and were recognised and honoured by the community as scholars.
There was physical punishment given out by parents to children, on a similar scale to my own upbringing in the 60s.
I think the mother in this case lost touch with any reality she might have had and the boy died as a hideous consequence of that. Utterly tragic.

"In this country we do not tend to jump to criticise the religion of any child abusers except muslims."

erm, catholicism?

Snorbs, it has to be considered in context though surely. In the time of the Prophet women were treated far harsher. The prophet was in favour of women being allowed to own property, he gave provision for women to divorce abusive husbands, he told family to take in widows. He married an older women because he felt responsible for her. Whilst it may say in the quran a husband can beat/tap/chastise his wife, it says many things in the bible that are equally outdated now. As a man of his times, I think the prophet was probably quite liberal compared to his peers.

This most certainly is not a case of religion but child abuse. That beautiful little boy, my heart breaks every time a case like this emerges. In this day and age it should never happen. RIP little fella.

It's a tricky area to say something like the Qur'an "should be considered in context". It's a holy book. You could consider it in the context of it containing stories of a religious chap who had some good ideas and some bad ones. Or you could consider it in the context of it being about the life of the most perfect man who has ever lived and who could, as a consequence, do no wrong. Or you could consider it in the context of it being the Verbatim Word of God and therefore containing nothing but unequivocal and infinitely enduring truth in every syllable.

Sure, I can look at it and see it as quite progressive for its time but still mired in the ways of the iron age society from which it emerged (violence against women, slavery and all the rest). But some people take it a little more seriously than I do.

It's interesting isn't it, that the Quran literally means recite. The word of god. Well if it is the word of god, without cultural or historical bias, why didn't god say "women must be treated equally and given equal pay" or "do not beat your children, if you do, I will send a social worker round forthwith"

Any interpretation will be of it's time & culture. There will always be a bias. On the other hand it's an interesting historical document.