I don't know one single reason why Scotland would want to quit the UK

[ClementineKelandra]

I'm genuinely interested in the reasons why Scotland want to break away from the UK. I'm sure there must be many good ones but I jyst can't see any atm.

I still marvel at the fact the SNP won, despite having no support from the Scottish media --apart from the Sunday Herald, but that doesn't count...

The snp landslide took me by surprise as I yes expecting, in light of a Uk Tory government, for labour to reign supreme. The liberals have always done very well up here but since they hopped into bed with the enemy it would seem they've lost a lot of voters too.

*was not yes

No more Tories would be my main reason too, same for a lot of people I know. Also a say on weather nuclear weapons are dumped on us. Many many people are unhappy about trident.

Speaking of the SNP landslide, did anyone notice the yellow map of Scotland (denoting the election results) behind Cameron when he was signing the Embra Agreement?

Wonder if that was stage managed

It always surprises me that Scotland is politically such a left wing country. Because most people here I speak to, my neighbours, colleages at work, and so on, seem to be conservative with a small "c", in that they dislike change and are quite money-focussed. Yet they will say they are socialist and want to pay more tax!

My guess is therefore that Labour took the place of the conservative party in Scotland, in that voters realised it would keep the status quo, whilst providing a sop to their consciences.

I wonder whether that same sector of Scotland would really want independence to rock the boat? I doubt it. Then again, I do a very few SNP supporters. They are very fervent, and get very worked up about it, and I kind of lose the will to live once they start, because they are so keen to convince you round to their viewpoint. Though unlike some staunch Labour supporters, I haven't actually been threatened with violence.

Perhaps they all fight each other now...I sometimes can't believe the sheer aggressiveness of the debate.

LessMissAbs Thu 15-Nov-12 11:35:15
"It always surprises me that Scotland is politically such a left wing country. Because most people here I speak to ... will say they are socialist and want to pay more tax!"

LessMissAbs Wed 14-Nov-12 13:31:58
"Mrs Keith Richards
Scotland is not a right wing nation
Thats the sort of viewpoint that makes me want to leave Scotland if it becomes independent. Its so intolerant, and so dictatorial.

Why is saying Scotland is not right wing intolerant and dictatorial, when you yourself now say it is left wing?

WhereYouLeftIt (indeed), what is the point you are trying to make? Is it to pick me up, pedantically, on what I may have said, or is to debate on topics? If so, what is your point of interest?

I certainly do not speak for the whole nation of Scotland, I simply posted my personal experience as someone who lives here, along with a number of other posters who have done the same.

But in actual fact, I was quoting MrsKeithRichards in your second quotation from me, above, not disagreeing with her...

I actually DETEST Braveheart.Awful film with awful acting and equally awful Mel Gibson :o

I am voting yes based on what I think is best for my country, plus fed up of years of Tory/rightwing Labour policies. I am not a huge fan of Alex Salmond but in most cases, he hasn't done a bad job.

I hate bigotry, but am gonna be slightly two faced and say that I am quite pleased for some of the Catholic schools round here. Educationally , they are the top performing schools round here, and I am bloody selfish enough to want the best education for my daughter.Oh btw, she isn't Catholic, we got her a move cos she was bullied at her last school for being "differerent" (subsequent diagnosis of ASD). School has been excellent in providing support Just fabulous.

No anti-English bias here :o. I was born south of the border.

do you ever make any association between the words that are coming out of your mouth and the aggression with which you are met, LessMissAbs?

"My guess is therefore that Labour took the place of the conservative party in Scotland, in that voters realised it would keep the status quo, whilst providing a sop to their consciences."

can you explain this a little further, i genuinely don't understand what you mean.

My point is, I don't understand you. Another poster says something. You lambast her. You then say the same thing in different words and get all huffy when it is queried. I am left not knowing where you are coming from.

Could it be that the Scottish "conservatism" (small c), money-focussed approach (I was say "canny with money ) is compatible with its left wing leanings due to its belief in society and the consequent responsibilities ?

... which takes us back to some of the earlier discussion about Scotland (or the majority of those in Scotland) having a different set of values.

That's why, as a higher rate tax payer, I am happy to pay more tax in order to ensure good services such as education, infrastucture and health and to protect the vulnerable in our society.

WhereYouLeft its very simple - its all in quotation marks.

MrsKeithRichards said "Scotland is not a right wing nation". Not me. I then replied to her.

But this is an excellent example of the type of debate that is usual in Scottish politics, and indeed the Scottish Parliament. "You said", "No, I didn't", "Yes, you did". Like schoolchildren. It could quite possibly be played as a recording for some kind of torture treatment...

Prettybird I too am happy to pay a bit more tax to get a better infrastructure. Just remind me where that infrastructure is, in terms of transport, in Edinburgh right now?

Is there an underground I can use, to reduce my 8 mile commute to work from 1 1/2 hours by bus and walking to a more manageable time?

We already pay more tax in Scotland btw, in terms of Council Tax.

You can't have an underground in Edinburgh (iirc) because it's built on rock. Waaay too expensive.

I do remember many years ago that there were plans to bring back the many, many miles of rail track that had been Beechamised (Morningside is a good example of somewhere that could be connected by rail to the city centre - that's a pain in the arse by car or bus at the moment). However the good citizens of the suburbs got organised and put a stop to that. Too many expensive properties with defunct railway lines at the bottom of the garden unfortunately.

I believe that the congestion charge proposal met with similar difficulties from those living in the leafier districts..

The city council have tried over the years to be fair.

LessMissAbs, you are becoming less understandable . It should be clear from my two posts that I am aware the it was MrsKeithRichards who said that "Scotland is not a right wing nation". Your reply to her jumped down her throat - "Thats the sort of viewpoint that makes me want to leave Scotland if it becomes independent. Its so intolerant, and so dictatorial." So I read that as meaning that you disagreed with her statement.

Which is why I could not understand why you then posted "It always surprises me that Scotland is politically such a left wing country", as this is what you appeared to so vehemently refute when MrsKeithRichards said it.

The trams in Edinburgh - now that's a whole separate issue! I would insert a - but it's probably gone beyond that for the people of Edinburgh .

The minority SNP government did try to stop it but was outvoted. More recently it was a case of so much money had been spent that it would be pointless to pull out. Whoever put together the original contract should be shot hang their head in shame.

The fact that we have major gaps in infrastructure (the non motorway between our 2 major cities for one), to me is not an argument against independence. That would something a government would have to do with the resources it has at its disposal. Already - and debatably - the Scottish Government is spending more on capital projects than technically it should. It's not sustainable long term.

I also think that we are putting too much into road infrastructure (trams notwithstanding) and should be doing more for public transport and cycling. But again, that depends on who we vote for.

I already pay over £2,600 in Council tax and I'm not even in the top band - I am fully aware of how much we have to pay!

LittleMiss, if your commute is 8 miles and it's taking 90 minutes by bus, save the fare money and walk, it'll be faster and healthier.

prettybird Thu 15-Nov-12 12:30:17
"Could it be that the Scottish "conservatism" (small c), money-focussed approach (I was say "canny with money ) is compatible with its left wing leanings due to its belief in society and the consequent responsibilities ?"

I absolutely agree. I think that Scottish conservatism is a more traditional form that the market-driven (aka Law of the Jungle, or Devil take the hindmost) version currently dominant in England.

I posted on another recent thread, AIBU to wonder if there is a difference between Scottish and English viewpoints as a society? and I'm going to cut&paste it here :

"I think there is a difference between the Scots and English mentality, and it arises from our histories, For me, Scotland is far less hierarchical than England. For example, in Medieval times, land was granted by the King to the Dukes, and by them to minor landowners, there were vassals, serfs etc. In Scotland, there was the Clan system, the land was collectively owned and defended. (Even today the concept of freehold and leasehold does not exist.) In religion, the Church of England has bishops, archbishops, vicars, deacons, sextons etc. and is headed by the Archbishop of Canterbury. The Church of Scotland has ministers, supported by Elders from their congregations, and head by the Moderator of the Assembly of the Church of Scotland, an elected post held for four years only.

IMO, this heritage of a flatter hierarchy is the basis for the more socialist cast to Scotland. As maybenow suggested, we do not see the state as separate from us, we see ourselves as collectively being the state.

Similarly, I think it may underpin out perceived 'chippyness'. In a flatter hierarchy, there is far less deference, because everyone is at the same level; so when someone tries to lord it over you (note: no Lords historically in Scotland, just clan Chiefs who had obligations to clan members as well as power) it is unjustified, and the person is deserving of being put in their place."

If such a fundemental difference in outlook does exist (I was merely voicing my opinion), it cannot be a surprise that independence would be sought.

In the Old Town there are all the tunnels and catacombs under South Bridge and Old College. You couldn't stick an underground through there.

Sleepyhead, I'd love to see the railways brought back as well. I live near the old Borders line and it would be great to be able to hop on a train and be in the city centre within 15 or 20 mins. I think there are plans underway to reopen the Borders line - great! The faster it comes the better. Don't mention the trams I was having a discussion with my sister yesterday about the proposed high-speed Edinburgh-Glasgow rail link as well - she commutes to Glasgow daily - and she was indignant that it's not planned until 2024.

The one thing that the trams will be good for tbh, is people travelling from Glasgow to Edinburgh. If you've ever done it by bus (as I did for 6 looooong months) you'll know the feeling of being tricked into a false sense of security as you get from Glasgow to the outskirts in what seems like no time at all, only to slow to a near standstill for those last few miles.

Aparently (according to a 600 driver dh spoke to) the buses will eventually terminate at the tram stop and you'll get the tram for that last bit which will make a massive time difference.

I'm not sure that upgrading and completing the M8, much as it needs it, will ever really help as the traffic at both ends is so dire.

I'm also not particularly excited by the fast trains. The reason I got the bus for those 6 months was I couldn't possibly afford the train. The Edinburgh to Glasgow link must be one of the most expensive train journeys, per mile, in the country. It'll only get pricier the faster it gets so probably no good for a commuter on an average wage.

LessMissAbs, what about cycling? Much quicker to cycle 8 miles than to bus it. When I go back to work after mat leave I have plans to cycle from Lasswade into the city centre not immediately, once I've readjusted to work, and not in January because it will be too dark

Have to say I'm only in favour of upgrading the A8 to motorway on safety grounds. Over the years, have become dubious about the benefits of more/wider roads/motorways as all that happens is that the traffic expands to fill it. People decide that it is feasible to live further away - and as you say, there is still the congestion within the urban areas themselves. I've seen that happening on the M62 corridor, the M25 and now in Scotland, with the M77. The M74 is probably the same - although it does make life easier for me when going down South :)