Woman dies in Galway after being denied termination

[AThingInYourLife]

Holy evil pro-life bastards, batman

The wonder is it that there haven't been more

RIP Savita Halappanavar :(

MaryZ if you tell a Doctor that they can only perform a termination if the life of the woman is in danger, can you not see how that Dr might be very hesitant to make a judgement on whether that is the case - how they might end up taking risks with the mothers health to be sure that the fetus has priority until it is really really really too late?

Seeker - as to the "rest of the UK" you will find that the Republic of Ireland is not part of the UK and has not been for decades.

Thankfully, death such as this is rare nowadays in Ireland, the UK and across the developed world.

But sadly, mothers do die and if we remain in the realm of fact and logic, their deaths are likely to be caused by medical negligence, incompetence, accident or error. Not by religion, or the "regulation" you refer to.

From what I have read, it seems perfectly obvious that this woman should have been given treatment that would have helped save her life, even if as a side-effect, it ended her pregnancy.

This is a normal practice that saves lives every day in Ireland and elsewhere. Such a tragedy for this woman and her family that the norm did not apply in her case.

Extrospektiv I've said it before and I'll say it again. Ireland doesn't want you.

Whoever said that "my god" with a lower-case G thinks abortion is murder, or who referred to God as an "imaginary being in the sky", will face reality of God at the final judgment. That isn't bigotry, that's Christian faith. It's all well and good to moan about "imposing beliefs on others"- when a law is passed legalising abortion, it imposes the belief on innocent unborn children that they are not worth living and they don't matter. No law on abortion can be made that does not impose some sort of value and God determines the correct values for a society to impose. This includes permitting operations that save the life of the mother and not delaying them over a non-viable fetus (or a viable fetus, although efforts should be made to save both lives if at all possible here.)

Maryz, you once wrote that "so-called fundamental Christians shouldn't home school, that's how they keep their children brainwashed" and applauded a post by UnChartered dissing Ireland for restricting condom access in the 1980s. The OP was a pro-family person, not that different to me (though perhaps a little more extreme) who was opposed to a specific school policy of not allowing parents to know what children are saying to their teachers. I am concerned about the same issue, as I am pro-family and pro-parents' rights.

You also had 4 posts deleted in that thread for offensive anti-religion comments violating the Mumsnet Rules.

I would not bring up past threads but this one was deleted anyway and since I have been directly asked by one of the people mentioned to show evidence of major and disrespectful anti-religion tendencies (which is what I was calling extreme left) I am saying so to avoid looking like a liar.

Yes, but he shouldn't have Easily.

As far as I know, no doctor has ever been sued for prioritising the health of the mother over that of the foetus in this type of case. And they happen every day in hospitals all over Ireland. The doctors treat them as medical (not religious, not legal) cases, and use the best possible medical treatment available.

This particular team made a massive, unforgivable error. Whether they really did that in the name of religion, I don't know, and to me it doesn't matter. They should have treated her, as other doctors and hospitals do.

There is no law in Ireland, and no doctor can claim there is, which states that a mother's health should be put at risk on the very, very slight chance of saving an non-viable foetus. Really there isn't.

This is medical negligence. Yes, there is a case for reforming the abortion laws in Ireland, of course there is. It should have been dealt with years ago, we all know that. But in this particular case, if the medical team are saying she died because of the law or because of religion they are passing the buck.

Squoosh Why do far more Irish people believe in God, pro-life and traditional values than British people then?

You say the numbers are going down, and perhaps they are, but they are going down slowly and remain much higher than in Great Britain or any other Western European countries

No I haven't flatbread. People have misinterpreted what I've said multiple times. I actually know what I said, strangely enough. The post that I quoted from last night is actually real and does exist if you want to check it. It's pretty clear and straightforward and is written in English. I think you can follow it. In spite of me saying numerous times that I believe that Savita should have an abortion people are still claiming I said the opposite. I don't know why people can't follow what I'm saying. It's bizarre. I wonder do some people on this thread lack the ability to follow a logical argument.

Cailin

"She eventually got an infection, which WAS life threatening but at that stage having an abortion would have made no difference" How do you know?

This is one of the many comments you made last night in the same vein - and I am far from being the only person who picked you up on them.

If it makes you feel better to call me stupid, go right ahead. But you contradicted yourself left, right and centre. Want your views taken seriously? Then be clearer.

Goodness me Extrospective, have you been copying and saving my posts?

I don't think I am anti-religion (I'm CoI myself), so I think you must be a tad mixed up . Though I suppose I am anti bonkers religion that means that people use their religion as an excuse to try to control other people's behaviour.

Having said all that, I'm very glad you don't like me . I don't think I'd like to be associated with your opinions at all.

People who support abortion rights are not saying that the life of a fetus is not worth living, they are syaing that the rights of the already existing woman take priority. The notion that the rights of the unborn trump the rights of the woman seem to completely gloss over the realities of everyday life for many women.

Ever since access to abortion was improved in England, ever since the pill became available, women have been crossing the sea from Ireland to get help. It's allowed the anti abortion contingent to pretend that their denial of women's rights has no risk or consequence, because those seeking abortions have had access to safe medical procedures over the sea, so the illness, infertility and death caused by back street abortions has been largely avoided. Contraception, abortion, basically the provision of Irish women's reproductive health services has been supplemented by the UK for decades, providing essential medical care that the Irish govenment find too distasteful to talk about. Everyone knows where to go if you need help, so they've been able to pretend, officially, that abortion is something that just isn't relevant.

Well no-one told Savita or her husband. They had the misfortune of going into a hospital and expecting to get help. They didin't know that God was standing between them and decent medical care.

"Imagine"

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

Narked, you really don't know what you're talking about here. You appear to have a hang-up about "religion". As to the "regulation" you cite, it is clear you have no clue as to its origins, application or remit. Unless you believe it's "religion" perhaps? Won't respond again.

But if her medical team had not had to decide if her condition was serious enough to warrant a medically managed miscarriage; if they had not had to make that judgement at all, then this might not have happened.

I posted on my blog too.

Extrospektiv, please don't come to live in Ireland - we have filled our twat-quota for all time what with these doctors, the pedo priests, Magdelene laundry torturers etc, etc. Thank you.

I want to marry Solid.

I think the doctors would have been quite willing, in the course of treating her, to carry out another procedure or to give a drug to treat her that might also have encouraged the miscarriage, but in this case what she needed was a D&C.

Once again: if you are anti-choice, you are the moral equivalent of a racist and I hold you in contempt. You and your imaginary friend.

MaryZ As a SPUC member I watch this and several other sites that reflect major segments of the UK population for pro and anti family/ pro and anti life content. I have an extremist list, of people who post far-left and/or anti-religious nonsense regularly (a defensive response to people from a political study group putting me on a "right-wing extremist list" for daring to be pro-life and no other reason). You aren't on it.

Pro-life groups monitor many sources of information, pro-choicers do the same. There is no sinister plot here and I am not a journalist or someone collecting information in a way prohibited by the rules. I simply copy-pasted certain threads as they dealt with abortion, marriage or other family related moral issues.

I have an extremist list, of people who post far-left and/or anti-religious nonsense regularly

And what exactly do you plan to do with this list? Please do tell.

You come across as a deeply sinister person.

SGB You are an extremist. I hate it when pro-lifers are called extreme by pro-choicers who are equally extreme. Pure hypocrisy.

I agree with that Narked.

If there wasn't a relatively easy route to abortion in the UK, then the issue would have had to be dealt with in law.

The difficult with changing the law (and with more referendums) is that, sadly, the sensible middle ground gets lost and drowned out by extremists on both sides. It isn't likely that a country will go from no abortion straight to abortion on demand until term in one go. Yet every time it is suggested that limited abortion (say up to 13 weeks) should be legislated for, both sides go ballistic and vote against it.

And also, very few people bother to vote in Referenda at all. So you get a 40% turnout. Of those a quarter vote against because they are "pro-life", a quarter vote against because the proposal doesn't go far enough, a quarter vote against because they hate the government, and only a small number of middle-of-the-road posters vote for.

So any referendum on abortion is bound to fail .

That's why it hasn't been dealt with.

That is why it is the fault of not just her medical team, but the lawmakers and the church and every other idiot who voted against a reform of abortion laws. This is what happens when you legislate against abortion. Women die. Of course it's not intentional, of course pro-lifers don't want this to happen, but their short sightedness in the face of the blindingly obvious - that women will need abortions in difficult circumstances, regardless of your own views on morality - lead to things like this happening.

This with bells on.

I am sick of people using religion as a way to justify bigotry and then getting upset when people, quite rightly, haul them up on it.

I am not anti-religious. I am, however, anti people using religion as a shield and indeed a vicious weapon, to beat others with.

Life is not black and white, and to me this is often where religion does fall down as too often it is interpreted in a black and white way.