Woman dies in Galway after being denied termination

[AThingInYourLife]

Holy evil pro-life bastards, batman

The wonder is it that there haven't been more

RIP Savita Halappanavar :(

its really scary that someones religion ,beleifs killed this woman who was neither irish or catholic,

lets hope the eu steps in.

It's standard procedure in Ireland. It's offered as an option in the UK as long as no infection is present. Remember that when Savita entered hospital there was no sign of infection. In that circumstance a UK doctor would also have offered the same procedure, along with the other option of termination. Where the Irish doctors failed was in monitoring Savita for infection. By the time the infection was discovered it was in her blood, and an abortion would have had no effect at that stage.

Cailin, I do understand what you are saying, but you seem so intent on your point that you are not absorbing what the people who (while holding the same position wrt to the fact that the foetus should have been removed in any case) disagree with you are saying.

IF the law on abortion was not an issue in this case, why did the staff repeatedly check foetal heartbeat and only carry out the removal once it had gone? Why did they say 'this is a catholic country'. They could have said, in response fro a request fro the termination 'it isn't necessary / could pose a risk / won't help prevent infection'.

This is a terrible combination of medical negligence and the law.

And of course the UK representatives haven't dealt with this situation because there is no such thing as this situation in the UK - a termination would have happened quickly with no barrier.

It doesn't matter if it could have saved her Sorry - but I think that matters rather a lot.

You are right in that, even if she hadn't died or wasn't even in danger of death, if an abortion was a) requested and b) would have prevented her suffering then it should have been allowed without question.

But she did die, Cailin and I think Savita's death must, must drive it home to the hardline pro-lifers that abortion is not always about choice, it's a medically necessary procedure too sometimes. How horrible that this woman, with so much to offer us with her skills, had to die for people to to actually confront this.

Cailin: we do not know those things! Such as when she first came in there was no sign of infection, or by the time it was discovered...etc. You are making wild presumptions.

That poor woman and her husband going through hell in what they believed to be a modern country, my heart goes out to the husband and i hope some good can come out of this.

Calmingmiranda, people also die in the U.K during childbirth due to incompetent doctors and staff. I do agree a termination was most certainly needed in this case and lack of is inexcusable.

I agree with Cailin insofar that the exact circumstances of the infection are a red herring and to focus on that alone sets up a position that is impossible to prove or disprove, namely 'an earlier termination would have saved her'.

Of course it matters whether or not it might have saved her - but it is just a matter of degrees of horrendousness IMO.

Wrt to heartbeat: there is a world of a difference between a healthy, viable FHB and 'a heartbeat': agonal rhythms do not support life, so it really is a bit pointless checking for it when a miscarriage is in progress. The poor, poor woman. And her husband.

And to help Irish women moving forward

www.abortionsupport.org.uk/support-us/donate/

Here is an excellent summary from an obstetrician's perspective

drjengunter.wordpress.com/2012/11/14/did-irish-catholic-law-or-malpractice-kill-savita-halappanavar/

You see Crikey, the hope that this case will "drive it home to the hardline pro-lifers that abortion...is a medically necessary procedure" is where this whole thing is going to be derailed IMO. Because the medical evidence will not support that. I'd bet anything on it. The pro-lifers will smugly be able to say "even in this case, abortion was not necessary," because pro-choice will have set themselves up for that fall by claiming it was absolutely necessary. I can totally see this whole thing getting buried in irrelevant details.

Calming at what point did I say the law on abortion wasn't an issue? The law on abortion is absolutely the issue, I've said it maybe 50 times!! I said Savita should have been given an abortion regardless of the risk of infection. But the law didn't allow that. And that's the problem.

This has made me very sad, how awful, rip

Thanks for posting those links, Dye and Holey

Really helpful links. thanks.

Still, no penny dropping of "oooooh, THAT explains it" - I don't much like the explanation I'm left with.

Shame, disgrace and shame.

Because the medical evidence will not support that How do you know that exactly?

This is the problem I'm having with your posts. I suspect we're broadly in agreement, but you are making pronouncements that you are not qualified for & don't have the evidence to support. Most of the experts who are talking about this in the media are, indeed, saying that she might have been saved if she'd been allowed an abortion.

Now they could well be wrong, and you might be right - but stop being so definite, please. You don't know any more than I do.

But I agree with you - the real issue is that Savita's request about her own body was refused and that is unforgivable.

Read Holey's link, I beg of you, CailinDana. All the ethical arguments in the world cannot negate what this doctor is saying about the medical care this woman should have received

there is no medically acceptable scenario at 17 weeks where a woman is miscarrying AND is denied a termination

I don't see why people tell others what to say or think. It's very strange. I'll be as definite as I like. Because I feel sure about it. I am agreeing with you that it might have saved her but there is no way on god's green earth anyone can produce evidence to support the husband's assertion that it would have saved her "without a doubt." Not even the existence of gravity is proven "without a doubt." Now it shouldn't be necessary to absolutely prove it was absolutely necessary of course, it should be enough to say that she could have had a greater chance of survival. But we all know that that's not how abortion debates go. If you make a bold statement like "without a doubt" you absolutely have to back it up or be shot down in flames. And there is no way to do that.

I suggest that you read HoleyGhosts link, Cailin.

Er - yes, the existence of gravity is proven without a doubt, Drop and pencil - that's gravity. It's just not well understood yet.

You have no medical qualifications, but you know better than people who do? Goodness me!

Read what an expert says - you know, those people who have spent years training & then treating people

I did thanks Crikey.

Then you can see that you're wrong.

Good.

And the logical conclusion of what that ob/gyn is saying in the link is that every woman in Savita's position should be able to get the termination they need NOW - before the legislation is changed.

yes yes yes, no justification should be necessary and I fervently hope that things change in Ireland to bring this about.

But in the meantime speaking out about the truth of the medical facts highlights how her medical care was negligent. There is no doubt about that.

Every doctor in Ireland should know that there is no medically acceptable scenario at 17 weeks where a woman is miscarrying AND is denied a termination.

Denying her a termination was medically unacceptable.

Regardless of the law.

It's not about medical expertise Crikey it's about logic and argument. The existence of gravity is not proven because nothing is proven in science. Anyway that's a side issue.

You are not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying the medical experts are wrong and I'm right, I'm saying that now that the husband has used the words "beyond a doubt" everything will centre around that. And he has presented an argument that can't be supported. Which is why I'm saying the infection issue just clouds the whole thing - it'll become entirely about that and how necessary the abortion was and not about the fact that it didn't need to be medically necessary, it should have been done anyway.

Anyhow, interesting debate but I'm tired and really need to go to bed.