How wicked of you, David Cameron.

[vivizone]

So we're going back to Victorian notions of the 'undeserving poor'. Time to re-open the workhouses.

How this man and his cronies are getting away with so much damage done to the ordinary man and woman, I do not know.

Help us all.

www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/nov/09/deserving-families-council-housing-priority

I agree with you, but that's not the same as saying 'you are saving the government a fortune'. What if the government will only give support to disabled children if they live with their parents? You are still entitled to that support and you are getting it, but because the government gives some support, that doesn't automatically mean you are entitled to more. Therefore you are not saving anyone money, you are just rightly receiving what the government has told you you are entitled to.

A child who is abandoned by its parents is entitled to be cared for, but that is not the same as a parent being entitled to have someone else take over their responsibility.

You don't have to be grovelling to be appreciative.

freddo, I don't live in another country I live in england.
I do not see the point of that comparison.
you obviously have no idea what it is like to know that you are going to have to care for someone for the rest of your life.
and when I say care, I mean to do everything for them, even though you yourself are falling to bits, have no money and going by this government should also be volunteering to help others!!
yes people like me do save the government a fortune. and all we want is not to be called scroungers. to have support, to not have our hard fought for respite cut once they reach 18.
I do think people who are not carers just do not get how hard it is, yes we love our child, the same as you love yours, but ffs no one expects to be caring for their child fo ever.

That's total bollocks, Freddoes.

I am grateful every day that I live in a country with limitless safe-to-drink running water.

That I live in a country where women can walk down the street wearing what they want, in the presence of whom they want.

Where if I am assaulted or robbed, a police force will investigate these things and the Crown prosecute.

Where every child is entitled to a free education 5-18.

And where I can pay tax and National Insurance so that the most vulnerable in society will be supported.

I have lived in countries where none of these pertain. And I am grateful for them.

But if the water's cut off, I complain to the water company.

If I'm abused for being female in public, I'm outraged that anyone thinks that's acceptable.

If the police refused to investigate a crime because I wasn't a VIP, I would question what they think they're for and why I'm paying for them.

If a child was refused a secondary education, I wouldn't say, "Oh never mind, at least they had primary."

And if I've paid tax and National Insurance, and find the country doesn't after all fulfil it's promise to look after its sick and vulnerable, I don't sit here saying, "Oh that's OK, because they'd die faster in Somalia."

You seem to be confusing "gratitude" with "disempowerment".

The council cannot afford to house the homeless in private housing already because of the LHA caps. And again, the policy of shifting to private landlords does nothing but enrich landlords at taxpayer expense.

I do object when the little money we have coming in is going to be cut yet further, of course I do.

Because we don't get anywhere close to £150k for being carers. Not that I'd want to, but we need a certain amount for roof, heat and eat.

They're eroding that.

So yes, relatively I do save THE TAXPAYER a fortune. Because according to the system in this country if I'm unable to do it then resi it is, at that cost.

Actually people who equate work with deserving are confused: it's the people who could never work no matter how they tried- disabled, sick, etc- who are most deserving.

But I come under most people's deserving category from another angle and frankly it's my dignity (outside MN, the only place ANYONE knows much at all) that keeps my head going: I'd rather reserve that and keep going thank you, I don;t want anyone to know they should- ahem- pity me (isn;t that what deserving is about). I DO NOT wish to be pitied, not do I deserve that.

I am grateful I was born into a country where I could pay NI for a great many years knowing I was contributing towards a safety net.

Pay carers a better income and you would not lose much (the majority of Carers live in poverty so it would just balance against the HB, IS etc they claim) but would actually send the message that we DO contribute and are worthy of that recognition.

Even the poorest countries have funded (if by charity) facllities for disabled people of some sort- no saying what quality, but they exist: I follow a group on FB that provides such care in Malawi. Care for my two boys would cost around £3.5k a week in a residential setting. I care because they are my boys and I want to and think I should, but simple economics state that enabling more people to carry out that role in an ageing population without fear of financial penury adds up to savings in the long term.

that is the thing Glitter, people do not seem to get that by cutting support to carers they will have no choice but to give up and put the person in care.
even the cheapest options will cost the government way more than the support they should give carers. but they and some people on here seem to be blind to this.
It is so easy just to pass the buck and tell carers to get on with it.
but they won't be able too.

Well no, because the person with the disability shouldn't get the support, apparently. They should be destined for the gutter, you know... begging in the street. Because that's what happens in other countries.

Not civilised ones, mind.

Or maybe those lovely 'special showers'. Read an article at the weekend about how on earth did Hitler get away with his gas chambers, comparing it to what is happening today. I can see the link to be honest.

When we try to shout about what is happening to us we're considered 'scaremongering' or 'hysterical'. When we know exactly what is happening and try to tell people we're not believed.

That's how it all happened in the thirties.

As a developed and relatively rich country, supporting disabled people is of course something the government should do

Yes that's right.

I was pathetically appreciative my carers benefits, but now they are under threat I feel different.

I really don't understand your mindset outraged when you yourself have a child with a disability.

My sons care needs are nothing compared to some peoples, but they are still lifelong so I understand how others feel, I don't get why you do not?

So many people keep saying 'oh but I agree that people with disabilities and their carers should be looked after' yet we keep being shouted down when we point out that that support is being wrenched away! that is why these discussions always come round to this.

As for what other countries do, well I have seen what happens to people with disabilities in some other countries and TBH its inhumane, should I be bowing and scraping with gratitude that I am not being treated like that? well the thing is, that is where we are heading.

When we try to shout about what is happening to us we're considered 'scaremongering' or 'hysterical'. When we know exactly what is happening and try to tell people we're not believed

Gos yes, this is sooo frustrating!

Outraged et al: What is it you want gratitude for? The answer is your money. Which is not yours any way, it is collected from your wage at source, to pe paid in to a communal pot. Out of which the government decides on how this pot is divided. So do you want us to feel grateful for the government deciding that your money should be spent on things other than careing for the citizens of our country.

Your distortion of what happens in other countries is truly staggering as in THIS country the country where we live, elections have been held, for the last 60 years which have given the mandate to primarily the labour party to put in place the kind of social care including welfare that is being cut now. So you are in fact saying that all those people over the years who voted, worked, and died to create OUR society should not have bothered because their vision of a fair and just society leads to "entitled) views on what a government spends some of your pay on?
Aye Right

And those of you who think we should just get on for caring for our kids as you do - will you still be wiping their arses at 30?

What are we supposed to survive on? Virtue alone?

Oh and all those of you who do not believe that people with disability are not entitled to care through the state, by the same token great let's cut pensioner benefits and healthcare too.

They are by far the biggest burden.

No? Then why is it ok to do it to people with disabilities?

(not my beliefs by the way)

As Godwin's Law has already been invoked I'll quote the last few lines of a recent blog post from Sue Marsh (Diary Of A Benefit Scrounger):-

Josef Goebbels: "If you're going to lie, lie big and stick to it."

David Cameron: "We will always protect the most vulnerable."

Oh and if we did not get CA then we would not afford the rent: which would mean in turn that we would take FAR more from the state in terms of social housing and the like as my income was factored in when we had the boys- a not unsubstantial income, I am well educated and skilled in my sector.

When I became a carer, things had become unsustainable: DH worked nights on a contract with no day work (think getting newspapers between print and sale): he was on good money but trying to sleep in a house in the day with waking autistic children stimming at top volume had made him ill, the GP was begging him to pack it in and take time off but he did not feel he could- he ended up being made redundant when the company was bought out and relocated somewhere we could not follow (a year waiting list alone for the SN schools we would need for the boys, let alone anything else), they had just merged with other local firms and took them with them too, sucking a lot of jobs out of the 2009 economy. I had worked in the chairty sector: firstly in a job where I would be sent anywhere in the UK at a day's notice for events or training (bloody loved that job), then in one where I worked hands on with people who were not coping with parenting- mentally I just could not cope with abusive parents, supporting people through terminations for disability, the uselessness of SSD alongside what we were going through during diagnosis. As it happened, had I not given given up (pre DH's redundancy) I'd have lost the job anyway as the charity could not make up my wage during the early part of the credit crunch.

Sitting with a calculator, my CA has been split between two things: rent, and paying for me to go back to college and retrain. DH is also retraining (alongside working SE), and hopefully within the year we will be able to be both back at work again in careers that are sustainable with the extra demands upon us. So0 in reality from where we were, a step back up towards independence whereas I believe we'd have been permanently dependent otherwise: indeed, what with DH's failing MH and lack of sleep we'd not still be married, not a hope. And therefore would get respite and all manner of help we are denied now.

As for people who argue it's just parenting- frankly if your almost 13 yera old needs 24/7 supervision to keep the family safe and you regard that as normal then you need to seek help and FAST. If you fully expect to still be responsible for your son's needs when he is 46, see a GP. If you need 2 adults to leave the home in any significant manner as a family, chat to a parenting teacher.

Because it is NOT the same, at all.

Amber, I do understand how others feel. I really do, and not just because of my own son, but because of many people I have in my life. I can understand how carers and disabled people in this country feel at the same time as understanding how others I come across in other countries feel, and it's understanding of more than one issue that shapes my opinion.

I don't think every poster who tries to talk about what is being done to their lives and that of their families is scaremongering or hysterical, but some are. When you get posters, as above, comparing the cuts to disability benefits and services to the gas chambers used in the holocaust, what do you expect? People who voice opinions like that do far more harm to your valid cause than people who voice opinions like mine could ever do, because it gives the whole debate a complete lack of credibility, which is sad.

'. They should be destined for the gutter, you know... begging in the street. Because that's what happens in other countries.

Put ds1 on the streets and he will be in prison having injured someone or worse within the month.

This is acknowledged fact. Violence is how he reacts to fear.

He won;t disappear into some quiet gutter. DS3 would simply die very quickly.

It's not about Godwins though. It's something in recent history that people have sucked their teeth about for years, shaken their heads and muttered "ooh never again, that could never happen in our civilised society".

Yet it can, and it is. And those at the sharp end are being ignored.

@Amber & Charlie

I understood that one of the provisions IS volunteering. So your friends who you gave as an example Amber, they should qualify shouldn't they?

From what the article says, there's no suggestion of not providing support. It's just that there will be priority given to certain groups. To try and imply that therefore people are flung out onto the streets is just scaremongering.

Already there are rules in place as to who gets priority for council houses. This just changes the criteria and favours those who contribute in some way over those who have not.

Personally I can see the logic but there is detail which needs to be hammered out to ensure it's fair and not abused. If someone is willing to take a bullet for his country in some god forsaken hell hole then the least the country can do is prioritise his family if they are struggling.

it's the people who could never work no matter how they tried- disabled, sick, etc- who are most deserving.

This I agree with, and maybe naively, I assume most people do.

Gas chambers are being spoken about as many consider the extra costs of disability to be an inconvenience. "We just can't afford it" hand wringing.

Doesn't make the costs go away though, in many cases they escalate. So hey let's 'get rid' of the problem, yeah?

So here we go again.
NOBODY has ever even hinted, never mind actually suggested, that carers and/or their disabled children should be losing benefits or care provision. NOBODY!
But still you are erupting into flames of self righteous anger, throwing disgusting accusations at people, insisting they want to set up gas chambers and workhouses etc... And then you wonder why the words scaremongering and hysterical start getting bandied about.
You keep saying "What don't you understand?" You completely overlook the point that everyone agrees with you ? whatever their politics. And if there were a magical bottomless pot of money no one would begrudge you a single penny of whatever you need. But there isn't.
AND THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE WHO NEED HELP, WHO NEVER GET A LOOK IN, BECAUSE ANY DISCUSSIONS REMOTELY INVOLVING BENEFITS ALWAYS GET HIJACKED.
What can't you understand about that?

Glitter, you come across (to me) as if you believe that everyone who doesn't agree entirely with your views considers the extra costs associated with disability to be an inconvenience and that the problem should just be 'got rid of'. I don't know if that's what you mean, but it would be wholly inaccurate.

Yes freddos I'm sure most people do.
Shame the current government are not amongst them.