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Exposure, newsnight etc discussion part 2

995 replies

MrsjREwing · 09/11/2012 19:05

Last thread full.

Steve has released a statement responding to Lord McAlpines statement.

OP posts:
Tipsandshoots · 12/11/2012 09:37

But they had investigation valid ones and every time they got so far up the chain the information was out of the investigations remit, or it got closed down, or it got pulped, or the police were told by someone on high to stop, or the police in charge were moved out of their jobs, or there was a suicide. Waterhouse, jillings, etc etc can't remember the jersey one or the islington one.
I want a proper througher investigation that follows the trail whereever it goes. Then the enablers will be halted in their tracks.

ssd · 12/11/2012 09:38

the think is , how does anyone know it isnt LM? why did his name keep coming up? why were the abused told the photo they were shown was LM?

who showed them the photo and told them that name, this must be on record somewhere

aparantly it was the insurers who wanted the Waterhouse investigations closed, they were scared the council would get sued by the high up people named as abusers....was the insurers ever questioned?

Tipsandshoots · 12/11/2012 09:43

Jins there is no suggestion in the waterhouse report because they didn't follow up any of the leads. They destroyed the photos showing evidence.

Come to think of it whose house did SM go into to get those photos?

Jins · 12/11/2012 09:48

No it was Jillings that was suppressed. Legal advice at the time was that it was defamatory. I suppose that would be the case if names were being named and there was no conviction. Waterhouse published 'Lost in Care' which did address the Jillings report and confirmed that the names shouldn't be named.

A current investigation has started. In the light of Hillsborough and the public demand for the truth I suspect that this will operate better with a wider remit. Some of the names that were named at the time are not alive any more.

Jins · 12/11/2012 09:52

There really isn't enough in the public domain to be able to back up the theory of a high profile paedophile ring. There wasn't then and there isn't now. The 'named' individuals have had plenty of time to destroy evidence or find a defence if they were involved.

Leave it to the investigation. The whole business has always stunk very strongly of fish

Tipsandshoots · 12/11/2012 10:15

So they pay millions for an enquiry, judges, councillors, social workers, police, managers the whole team were silenced Abot children being abused because some bod in a tie in an insurance company said the children may have a claim against the insurance company. The council who has paid a premium every year to be insured against these sort of claims said ok then no problem we won't say anything.
Bizarre reasoning. Surely that's what the council are insured for FFs.

Tipsandshoots · 12/11/2012 10:22

There is tonnes in the public domain. It's too scary what's in the public domain most is in the daily mail ( which I still can't get over) Crikey click on some of the links on this thread once you start you won't stop .
Jimmy saville all came out when he died. I dont want to wait till they die I want them to be in court now.

Jins · 12/11/2012 10:22

That's about it Tips.

Clwyd's legal advisors IIRC, not the insurers, said the Jillings Report was defamatory.

Waterhouse was the big expensive one. The Jillings Report fed into the Waterhouse Inquiry when they determined the remit. Nobody was silenced as such, they just weren't called as their evidence was outside the remit.

It was all very odd. It needs proper investigation for sure. I'll never be able to unhear the rumours back in the late 80's/early 90's. But it needs to be done properly and I'd hate for the twitter witch hunts and BBC smokescreen to allow a guilty party to get away with it on a technicality.

Jins · 12/11/2012 10:26

Tips, what is in the public domain is fundamentally accounts of the rumours that were going around back in the day. I could add to them but I won't because they are just rumours and gossip.

Some of it may be factual but I can guarantee that nobody has found the information needed to make a judgement on this through google.

The survivors need justice and our support but it's really important for us all to keep within the law

Tipsandshoots · 12/11/2012 10:38

They have been published in a newspaper(s) They are accounts of court cases, they are public reports and they are also in Hansard. There are tonnes.
The gap fillers are within police records ( I hope) in enquiry documents and in public servants kitchen tables.
An investigation that just looks at the police will stay with the police. A enquiry that looks at the Bbc will stay with the bbc.
What is needed is one investigation that follows the trail all the way not limited by anything. Therefore it follows the path from abused to social worker to police to judiciary to bbc to their friends from the same school.
Only then will we get any idea of if it is a local or a national problem

Jins · 12/11/2012 10:47

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ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 12/11/2012 10:49

But it needs to be done properly and I'd hate for the twitter witch hunts and BBC smokescreen to allow a guilty party to get away with it on a technicality.

Exactly this.

I strongly suspect that the remit of the Waterhouse enquiry was too narrow. It seems plausible that the police did not follow up on all the allegations made, this may have been for a number of reasons including prejudice against LAC, corruption or an unwillingness to believe bad things about people they identified with (e.g. John is a member of my golf club, seems like a good bloke, I'm sure he wouldn't do something like that).

Its worth remembering that the vast majority of people (whatever their political beliefs) find child abuse abhorrent and almost unimaginable. Its easier for people to accept Jimmy Savile as an abuser because he was a bit weird than to accept that the nice bloke, 2 doors down who has the lovely garden and always says good morning is actually a vile abuser. The bloke down the road is just like us, so we assume he thinks like us whereas JS was always "other" so its easier to believe he thought differently.

Mrcrumpswife · 12/11/2012 10:58

I'm not sure if anyone has looked at the Watehouse report but it is very clear than a majority of the accused abusers were not charged with anything even though there had been numerous complaints by different victims all saying the same thing, as the victims could not produce evidence or were classed as unreliable. I have picked relatively mild accusations in the grand scheme of things because it didnt seem appropriate to post anything else but you can see that these children didnt stand a chance of justice. The waterhouse report didnt question why the hell these people were not charged. It just followed on from the previous inquiries and offered nothing which is why a criminal investigation has to be started again into every reported offence.

Parts of Waterhouse report.............

21.99 To complete the picture it is necessary to mention also that a number of allegations of alleged abuse were reported by the Community to the Welsh Office in the period between l988 and l993. Thus, in May 1988 there was an allegation of assault on a resident made against White junior[297], who was then apparently Director of Bryn Alyn Hall. The Solihull boy involved was 16 years old and was a resident at Gatewen Hall, whilst attending school at Bryn Alyn Hall. The incident was investigated quickly by the Community and Clwyd Social Services Department set in train Child Abuse procedures. The conclusion reached in the Community's internal investigation was that White junior had "acted excessively". He had been suspended from duty during the investigation and, after the North Wales Police had informed him that he would not be prosecuted, he was transferred to administrative duties within the Community. He did, however, act as Deputy Head of Gatewen Hall from the summer of 1991 to January 1993 following the resignation of Lynn Williams.
21.100 In June, August and October 1989 there were further allegations of physical abuse. The first and last of these involved the same member of staff on both occasions. On the first occasion he was alleged to have physically abused two boys and removed all their clothes, for which, after an investigation, he was given a formal warning. Then in October 1989 he was alleged to have abused a girl resident, for which he was dismissed. The complainant in August 1989 alleged that he had been struck and pushed on three occasions by different members of the staff, after which he had absconded to his home in Sandwell. The allegations were referred to the police for investigation but no support for them by other children named as victims or witnesses was forthcoming and no prosecution ensued.

Ystrad school hall for disabled children.......

22.16 Four other members of the staff (one unidentified) and one resident were the subject of allegations of sexual abuse made by five different former residents, each of whom referred to only one abuser. As we understand the position, police officers investigated the allegations, which were not corroborated, and no prosecution ensued. The evidence of two of these complainants was read to us. In his first statement to the police, made in prison on 10 August 1992, this witness, C, described in detail how he had been indecently assaulted and later buggered by a named member of staff in a staff bedroom at Eirianfa. He alleged that the last occasion when buggery occurred was shortly before the fire at Eirianfa. He had not complained to any member of the staff about what had been done to him but he had confided in four named friends.
22.17 Although that statement reads quite straightforwardly, doubt about the general credibility of the witness C arises from two subsequent statements that he made. Shortly after his first statement a former resident told the police that he had seen C assaulted physically on two occasions by another member of the staff, Christopher (Chris) Williamson. C was seen, therefore, on 26 November 1992 by a police officer, who wished to ascertain whether C would confirm the allegation. In response, however, C denied that he had been assaulted by Williamson and said he recalled the latter only vaguely as a handyman who had never worked as a care assistant. C described Williamson as an elderly man with a grey beard who was cross-eyed.
22.18 C made his third statement on 16 January 1997 when he was seen by a representative of the Tribunal. In that statement he repudiated the second statement attributed to him, saying that he did not make it and that its contents were not true. He went on to say (contrary to his first statement) that he had complained to Williamson in his office about the first act of buggery on the day after it had occurred, but that he did not recall anything being done about it. Later in the same statement to the Tribunal C gave a full description of Williamson, putting his age in the early forties, and alleged that Williamson had assaulted him twice physically: the first occasion was when he had complained of being buggered, whereupon Williamson had come around his desk, grabbed him by the shoulder and smacked him across the face and had then pushed him down on to an arm chair, shouting "No, he didn't do it"; and the second occasion was when he repeated the allegation of buggery by a member of the staff to Williamson after some discussion with a friend's father and Williamson had thumped him on the face and head and kicked him in the ribs when he went to the floor.

22.19 The internal conflicts between these three statements are such that we cannot be sure that any of them is correct. The other complainant whose evidence was read named another young boy as his abuser and it has not been appropriate to pursue that allegation

These children were disabled and lad learning difficulties. What did the police need to prosecute because i am at a loss for wordsSad

Yes, it gets complicated but these children were the most vulnerable. What do the police and courts expect. Other than being a hand written confession, no amount of evidence seemed enough.

bananaistheanswer · 12/11/2012 11:13

Mccrump I think that extract is a clear example of the evidence given being dismissed without trying to delve further to try and make sense of it. It is an absolute tragedy that this kind of abuse, to the most vulnerable, can screw the victim up so badly it's hard for them to make sense of it, and give a clear consistent account. Which gives the abuser a way to avoid prosecution because its then dismissed out of hand rather than looked into further. It's infuriating that the very damage caused by the abuser can also prevent them from being brought to account.

Mrcrumpswife · 12/11/2012 12:54

Australia are trying to sort out similar problems. Why cant we do the same?

www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-12/gillard-launches-royal-commission-into-child-abuse/4367364

swallowedAfly · 12/11/2012 13:12

so beating and stripping boys (and it not being the first time you've had such complaints made about you) merited 'a warning'. it's crazy isn't it.

member · 12/11/2012 16:21

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Mrcrumpswife · 12/11/2012 16:38

Channel 4 Reporter has tweeted. Maybe some it will be exposed.

Ciaran Jenkins ‏@C4Ciaran
Expecting developments on child abuse allegations against former Rochdale MP Cyril Smith and claims of a police cover up.
Expand Reply Retweet Favorite

member · 12/11/2012 16:42

That's another "case" that had the involvement of Jimmy Saville apparently.

Mrcrumpswife · 12/11/2012 16:48

Shame they dont go for a living one!

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 12/11/2012 16:51

You can't libel the dead! So they can ask the questions about how these allegations were investigated without the risk of being sued.

Mrcrumpswife · 12/11/2012 16:56

Its a start and will hopefully lead on to the rest.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 12/11/2012 17:01

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Jins · 12/11/2012 17:13

I've been reading the statment of denial again and this phrase struck me.

"The facts are, however, that I have been to Wrexham only once.

That fact strikes me as completely irrelevant

Mrcrumpswife · 12/11/2012 17:20

I thought it was a bit of an odd thing to say considering that part of the allegation was that they were taken from the home to places in london.

Maybe they worded it badly.

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