Norman Kember-honourable and brave or a bit of a pompous arse??

[moondog]

I'm plumping for the latter.....

OK HC, sorry if i am projecting.

As I said their lives were of equal value though HC.

Never thought it would be MB correcting me on my grammar!

I happen to think that Blair's motives were genuine, and that he thought he was acting in the best interests of those he felt he represented. And that he felt he was "doing the right thing" Whether or not he lied doesn't say too much about his motives one way or another. Some people might be prepared to lie/not tell the truth in order to do the right thing. People do it all the time in fact. Morality isn't quite as black and white as - he lied, therefore he must be evil.

As regards climbing etc though, if you are perceived to have gone out without taking precautions etc (e.g. with a scout group etc) then I believe you are given the bill for your insurance.

Just don't know what to think about NK tbh. I applaud someone who stands up for what they believe in, but I don't think people should be put at un-necessary risk. His group refused to help the special forces looking for him, and the former hostages have refused to help with intelligence.

He himself cannot yet make a judgement on whether he was 'foolhardy or rational', so I think it is legitimate to debate this!

koolkat said she thought NK mihgt care MORE about Iraqi lives than soldier's lives. Imho, that is a litle crass in the circs.
I was asking you, ruty, why you thought his motives were good?

I think that to some degree Mr Kember fell foul of the tendency that is in us all to think that bad things happen to other people an not to us. While I am sure that intellectually he felt that he would be at risk, deep inside he didn't take on the real fact that he might well b kidnapped and/or killed.

And I'm not being insulting to the man over this, we are all somewhat incapable of recognising the very real risks that we put ourselves in. For exaplke one in two smokers will dies as a result of their smoking....people'know' this, but seldom seem to feel that it will be their death that makes up the statistic. This doesn't make them stupid, it makes them human.

I think the same think affected this man.

For what it is worth my husband never felt that his life was in risk when he flew fast jets....even though we lost 5 friends in the first five years together. He enevr even thuoght that his life was at risk when he was a few 100m away from a scud missile impact that killed american service persoal and civilians. Humans have an amazing ability to kid themselves about the risk to which they put themselves

ruty, from what you said, I felt sure that you didn't intend us to see some lives as wrth more than others. What you said was a little confusing, that is all. I wanted clarification to stop things kicking off that were not of your wishes

But why did he lie HC? Why did he say Saddam Hussein had WMD capable of targeting the UK in [i can't remember the specifics, some very short space of time] when they had no evidence of the kind? Colin Powell said that Bush's aids had been gagging to invade Iraq and finish off SH ever since the first gulf war. i think Blair did a deal with Bush. Once 9/11 happened, Bush's govt was hell bent on using it as a reason to invade iraq. Why did Blair go along with it? Even if there was some small hope that he did it for the good of the Iraqis [which i don't believe for one second when you think of people like Mugabe out there who are untouched - and what about Sudan?] he was very stupid to do what he did. I find it puzzling that so much emotion is directed towards NK and not TB.

as it happens I think the lives of the af are certainly no less important to save than anyone elses. Whether NK thinks this, I cannot say, although his actions suggest that he is sanguine about putting them at risk.
I think the lives of "paid" soldiers who are prepared to put their lives at risk int he service of their country are extremely precious and I wouldn't value them any less than any other human being, no. I am extremely bloody grateful to them. In this day and age the fact that they exist at all is nothing short of a miracle.

thankyou for clarifying my statement MB!

harps - the operative word in what I said was "perhaps" and it was phrased as a question. It was not a statement of fact.

I was projecting my thoughts on Iraq onto Mr NK.
I think I owe Mr NK an apology !

ruty, lol to think that emotion is not directed at TB. Really?? that's just not the case at all.
Look at the people who have marched in opposition to war. Read thre newspapers. Yours is not exactly a minority view.
well how about this - to depose a vicious, bloodthirsty dictator with a history of oppressing his own people, wiping out minorities, a penchant for torture and a tendency to invade neighbouring countries if left unattended. to send a message to other dictators/ME leaders that the West were prepared to use force if necessary?
because Saddam Hussein was the biggest liar of them all when it came to his own weaponry?
and because the time was right? like it was to intervene in Afghanistan.
and why Saddam and not Mugabe- because the support wasn't there?
to piss George Galloway off?
those are certainly possibilities?

at the moment, i do not think the armed forces are doing this country a service in Iraq - through no fault of their own.

i meant the emotion here, HC. I haven't seen any thread slagging off TB repeatedly as I have seen here directed at NK.
If the motives you list were TB's, then why didn't he use them? Why did he have to lie? why did the UN not sanction the war? He changed his tune, the tune you are singing, when the truth broke. I trusted him once. Not now.

well this thread is about NK. I have certainly seen many other threads anti war and anti Blair.
well, I think he did use them. He used them when the time was right politically.
Imho politics is not really a game of truth. I don't trust politicians to tell the Whole Truth in the modern day environment - they would be ripped to shreds. The people I choose to vote for are the people I choose to make the right decisions at he right time, even if they are tough decisions.

well we'll just have to disagree about whether it was the right decision. Our country's economy will suffer too as a result of this war, so its not just the Iraqis suffering [thought they are paying a much dearer price than you or I. in my opinion TB's was is not just illegal it is immoral.
I must have missed the threads repeatedly slagging TB off.

It was very much in fashion in the good old days of our colonising forefathers to march into any country we liked.

The fun and frolics included deposing regimes we did not approve of. After all they were only silly, uncivilised natives and they didn't know any better.

The UN tried to change all that by banning invasions, unless they were in self-defence.

If invading Iraq was not in self-defence (which it clearly wasn't unless you believe the lies perpetrated by this Govt. that we were about to be nuked by Saddam), then this war is illegal.

bad typos there sorry, leaning over the chair, ds tugging at my trousers. TB's war i mean. etc. Better go now!

ruty - I have a feeling a TB slagging thread will end in disaster just like his wars

What gets me is when they say that 'they' are going to report Iran to the UN.
Wot,like they couldn't possibly have heard all about it until the 459 page dossier lands on a desk??

quite KK.

Does anyone know where else their are CPT teams working and exactly what they do?

That's what i want to know Donk.
Observer said nowt about them yesterday/

I've found their website.
\link{http://www.cpt.org/index.html\CPT}