4 sisters returned to Italian father after their Australian Mum took them to Australia.....dragged kicking and screaming onto the plane.

[AmberLeaf]

Apparently the girls aged between 9-15 are dual citizens.

Link sorry its the DM.

Do they not take the childs view into account in Australia?

um, we are not discussing terrorists . At issue are children and not the rights and wrongs of the mother's/father's actions, but rather the impact on the children at this stage. Yes, it was wrong to take the children out of the jurisdiction (Italy), no one is disputing that, or at least I'm not, but one has to take into account how it will affect the children now, how many years down the road.

No, we aren't discussing terrorists, we are discussing child abduction. They are children, not property and the impact of them being taken away from the only home they have ever known two years ago must have been very distressing.

If we let the mother get away with it with the response (oh, well, what's done is done), we are opening the floodgates for any disgruntled parent to do the same, working on the principle that if they can be kept hidden for long enough they will be left where they are.

Did anyone else see the piece on This Morning on Wednesday about the woman whose husband took her two children to Pakistan? She didn't see them for ten years.

Because you should watch it, if you believe that we shouldn't follow the principles of the Hague Convention.

It was a requirement of our Australian court that the father not pursue charges against his wife.

What I find hard to fathom is the basic assumption that because the mother did the wrong thing she?s therefore the bad parent and by association, the father the good parent. This doesn't logically follow at all. I?m guessing both parents are basically decent people, with flaws like all of us. I have always been interested in the underlying reasons for the mother?s actions, something which doesn't seem to occupy anyone else here. It is far too simplistic to say that she did what she did simply because she?s bad. This isn't rational argument but rather reveals how polarised and limited this type of thinking is. This isn't a 1950's western.

As I said before, I?m guessing the marriage failed because of dominance issues. Sifting through the drivel that?s been said about her, it seems she is an educated woman, and she?s Australian so probably has a different view of marital equity than an Italian male. This isn't about ?bad? or ?good? here. It?s more to do with cultural differences and the male-female dynamic.

From what I can gather she is not yet self-sufficient with regards to earning her living. One solution would have been for the both of them to live here, separated but at least with both of them having access to the girls. She would have had enough government assistance to support herself until she graduated. I?m guessing the father preferred to live in Italy, which is understandable from his point of view but locks her out of custody options, which he is well aware of. I doubt they have Austudy and family tax benefit in Italy. Her choice was staying in a loveless marriage or losing her girls. There seems to be not one skerrick of empathy for her situation at all. It was a horrible situation for her to find herself in.

This is a very interesting case. these preceding posts are full of supposition and just prove how these forums can be misleading, very misleading.
In short, the father agreed to his children going with his ex wife for a holiday.
She tricked the father as she was never going to return the children. She bragged about this to a local paper in Caloundra soon after arriving in Australia. In Italy, She got Australian Government assistance in preparing the visa, a small loan etc no doubt using this same story.
The mother has stated to the courts that she wasnt happy in Italy, not because was being abused by the father, not because he was being a bad father to the girls but rather, that she couldn't find decent employment for herself.
fast forwarding a little, the mother gets to Australia, signs up for social security and commences government funded education. its obvious this was the plan, the next stage of her life. now meanwhile you can imagine dad is getting a little upset, and 2.5 years after his four children were stolen from him the hague convention brings his daughters back to him. All the relevant FACTS are here.

www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/FamCA/2011/485.html

these are the judges reasons for judgement , and in this lengthy document you'll find the mothers stated position, the fathers position, background etc.
Australia isn't pakistan ..judges can't be bought.
read this document and discover how badly the imagination can demonise one parent, in this case the father.
As a footnote to this post, when the children were taken forcibly by the feds from the mother, she told tv crews and police officers in front of the children that the father didnt love these kids. lovely eh?
Now, she won't follow her children as she is collecting funding from people who don't understand how to read documents, documents that are online and are available to everyone. leaving for Italy would halt or diminish the cashflow.

but one has to take into account how it will affect the children now, how many years down the road.

And courts & the law need to balance that along with the impact for everyone else. That was the point I was making.

There's a bigger picture here. If we let her get away with that sort of behaviour, it's a slippery slope as more & more parents do the same thing. After all, you let one do it, it's only fair you apply the same standards to others yes?

Or do you think it's not a problem?

I have always been interested in the underlying reasons for the mother?s actions, something which doesn't seem to occupy anyone else here. It is far too simplistic to say that she did what she did simply because she?s bad

If I could be bothered to search I'd link you to several threads on here from mothers who's relationship broke down (for all the varied reasons that relationships breakdown for) and they post on here 'AIBU to take my DC and move x miles away because I think I have better job prospects/family/friends/this is a dull town' ....but sadly it means they won't see their dad^

Some women don't seem to value the father. They view him as expendable, insignificant and disposable. Vile vile crap. I cannot imagine what mother would accept this view of their own parental role.

The existence of a another parent can be an inconvenience if you wish to make unilateral decisions about your child. Hence she left. She arrogantly ignored the law and the effect on her DC. Poor bloody kids.

At issue are children and not the rights and wrongs of the mother's/father's actions

Actually, the wrongs of the mother is the very heart of this issue!

its pretty obvious shes getting away with nothing. sure she had the kids without the father for 2 and a half years, did she think she was getting away with brainwashing the kids for that entire time along with her own mother in Caloundra? the world is getting smaller, people have more resources, people are getting more educated, the internet allows parents to become legal eagles or at least get pointed in the right direction. Do I think she should be prosecuted for crimes real or imagined in Italy or Australia? Damn straight I do. Mothers like this one seem to feel they can do what they like, lie to whoever they like, spin stories whenever they like...we need a deterrent and I think this is a good clear case that would provide a deterrent for parents of either gender who are considering pulling a swifty. I genuinely feel sorry for the kids who now have to unravel that brainwashing and try and get back to just..."yes my mother loves me and my dad does too"..."yes i am a valuable person, yes I'm worth loving" " "no, I don't have to self harm to get attention from people who don't love me and no, I don't have to starve myself"

"basically decent people" do not

1] kidnap their own kids
2] keep them away from one parent for over 2yrs
3] defy court orders to return them
4] go into hiding with them
5] lie to the children about their own father
6] whip them up into a frenzy so she has to be denied communication with them until she settles down

if you read the reasons for judgement, its clear why she left, well i think its clear anyway. Shed already separated from the father, she couldn't find suitable employment, she had no money. Mother was waiting for her in sunny Queensland.

Hannah, thank you for that document, it was very informative

I find it interesting though that you do not mention the documented (and not denied) evidence of Domestic Violence against the mother, especially the 'Serious incident of domestic abuse' that led to her moving out of her fathers parents home into an apartment with her children.

Or the motor bike incident.

Or the fact that the children, when on visiting their father were left alone to perform domestic chores whilst he played computer games. During that one time in the week that he got to see his children?

Whilst the mother should not have kept the children in Australia, I am not ready to demonise this woman who may well have been a DA survivor.

I would offer her sympathy if she were living in Italy, unable to come here because her girls wanted to be with both their parents & she was fecking miserable. I would offer sympathy if he was controlling her while refusing her to be independent. I would have sympathy if she could PROVE her allegations of abuse against her & the girls. I would have sympathy if she simple said to them "you go home to dad, I will try to follow as soon a I have the funds/flight/time off study etc" But she didn't do that! She added extra trauma to the their lives to justify her actions.

I am not blind to the fact that maybe perhaps possibly dad is controlling & that maybe perhaps possibly she had a shit life. But instead of making her case known through the correct channels, she kidnapped her daughters & deprived them of their father for over 2 yrs, while she manipulated them against him.

if you go here

www.facebook.com/kidswithoutvoices?fref=ts

you'll see a whole pack of women who would do exactly the same thing, who can't find any fault in the mothers actions, and who are collecting money for the mothers impending legal challenge, which will of course hurt the children even more. Its actually a page either run by the mother or her mother or another family member. I feel like disinfecting after reading the tripe posted there.
If you question them or point out blatant contradictions, they'll boot and ban.

I would have sympathy if she could PROVE her allegations of abuse against her & the girls

It's in the judgement, accepted by the judge, not denied by that father, and corroborated by the court appointed family adviser to the girls.

did the mother present any evidence of domestic violence to the court? pictures, witnesses? doctors records..dental..anything...it seems strange to me that the mothers supporters are only now barfing it out..i actually don't know, these arent rhetorical questions..educate me.

looks like ill re-read the judgement, ill be back.

yes, i see it...point 9.
however, this was when they were together..they weren't together when she fled.
I can see why the Court wouldn't consider this violence as an obstacle in that neither of them state they want a reconciliation. if it was the case that the Father had a habit of tracking the Mother down and beating her up, then ok, I can see why it would be a danger to return the children as it places the mother, if she were to return, in some sort of danger.
I back the Courts decision.

hannah0000035

What you have said has been stated many times on this thread, but thank you for mentioning is again, as all the other info gets lost in the conversation. I have posted that link too, but people don't want to seem to read it, because they just want to blindly support the motehr against the [abusive - in their opinion] father!

dallas, there is NO evidence! That's the issue. It couldn't be proved, nor disproved as the father wasn't here to do so.

I have said & will say again, it just surprises me because of he were that bad, would she have asked him to relocate with them all over here approx a yr before she took the children?

It went

We should all go & live there - he didn't want to
I should go & take the children - he didn't want his children so far away
I will take the children for a holiday - which it took her a year to get him to agree to BECAUSE HE WAS WORRIED SHE WOULD NOT COME BACK.

And she says all this in an interview with a local paper.

Seems he was right!

differentnameforthis...if people are blindly supporting someone because of gender, then those people are total f__g idiots.
there is very big lesson in this whole affair and if people don't want to learn, then they can't helped can they?

But dallas, all that about comp games & chores are hearsay! Stuff she has said & yes, the girls have said it too, but children do that! I cannot tell you how much my mother got me to say to her solicitor when she was divorcing my stepdad! I knew it wasn't true, but she told me that we would never be happy again & we would be homeless if I didn't say it, to be able to keep the house I had to 'back her up'!

I was 16, terrified of losing my home, I would have told anyone that I was a bloody monkey if it meant that we didn't lose our home!

That happened over the course of a a couple of weeks! This woman had years to plot her side.

It doesn't stand uop as proof. The only reason the judge cannot dismiss it, is because the father cannot prove he didn't do it! How can you prove you didn't hit someone?

I don't think we need to consider issues ilke whether the children did chorse whilst the father played video games. This is not a case about who is the better parent. It is about ensuring the law is respected to ensure that tomorrow our children are not stolen by their other parent without a court order. Even if this father is not up to much (and who can say - parents make up all kinds of stuff on both sides on divorce) for the sake of all other children in the world who live in Hague C countries (sadly many countries have not signed up to Hague) the judgment is right.

Also as a feminist I never believe children are best off with a mother because she is female. We need to get away from a view that mother is God and best for children. Children have two parents and they can do equally well with either. He has let them speak to her on Skype. Perhaps the Italians can find a job for her in Italy despite the current economic climate.

Abusive in the JUDGES opinion, Differentname.

Hannah, you should also read paras 32, 78, 83, 84, 88, 89, 93, 94, 96,97,98, 101.

This document is all about whether the children should be returned, which I agree they should have been (albeit in less damaging circumstances), but it makes me understand why the mother left. I can also see why she felt the children were not safe with their father.

There is no doubt she lied about the circumstances of the holiday/leaving when she did. She should be punished for that.

Although the father lied to the court as well, saying he had no contact with the girls for a year, but then the courts saw the evidence that proved he had.

There is fault on both sides. I am glad we have the Hague and glad that the courts abided by it - LAW should be black and white.

hannah0000035

Other than what she said & got the girls to say, there are, afaik, no known items that attest to her allegations being true. It all hinges on the fact that the father didn't/couldn't deny it or disprove it.