4 sisters returned to Italian father after their Australian Mum took them to Australia.....dragged kicking and screaming onto the plane.

[AmberLeaf]

Apparently the girls aged between 9-15 are dual citizens.

Link sorry its the DM.

Do they not take the childs view into account in Australia?

Imperfect people still have / and get awarded parenting rights every working day of the year- drug addicts, alcoholics, ex-cons..blah blah. Are some people saying that parent x isnt perfect therefore parent x has no parenting rights? i would imagine at any rate that if there was a serious assault, there then would be serious evidence..i gather Italy has hospitals, cameras.
The mother certainly isn't perfect and is anyone questioning whether she is fit to parent on any level?
Remember her he had all contact removed by the mothers actions, at least in italy.
Are the naysayers indicating he doesn't deserve the contact he has now?
Ridiculous.

hannah0000035 I have a couple of friends on fb that are blindly supporting her. They refuse to read anything other than the facebook page or her mums pages (who they have suddenly become friends with).

They won't listen to reason & believe the girls should never have been returned.

differentnameforthis, this topic has revealed the nature of your friends. Another positive aspect of a dark story.

Hannah, the motorbike incident? That certainly was 'recorded' as you put it. The child ended up in hospital.

Differentname, blindly supporting? The same could be said about you.

I do not 'supoort' the mother, but I understand why she left.
I do not 'supoort' the father, but I understand why he used the Hague.

your'e asking me to believe testimony provided by the mother? to blindly accept anything she states?...you're asking too much.
there is abundance of evidence that proves the mother is dishonest.
He hit something with the bike, I understand this happens quite a lot on bikes......do you accept that it could have been an accident...not in incident?
if you can, then me and you can be on the same page, otherwise...pls dont expect any respect from me.
Have you considered that the mother is a well established liar? that she expects to be financially supported by others..that she seems to seek the easy way out of everything?

ltevedallas..i think me and you can't be on the same page on this one. I simply can't believe anything stated from the mother and you seem to accept is as simple truth.

The father is also an established liar.

I believe in the Judge.

I don't need to disbelieve the mother or the father, I care about the children. I don't need to post nasty things about the mother - I don't know her. But I will defend anyone who is a victim of DA, male or female, for decisons they have made as a result of said violence. DA victims are often disbelieved, I am a better person for giving them the benefit of the doubt.

I dont need or desire your respect.

The evidence is in the document you provided. The evidence is accepted by the judge and corroborated by the family adviser, the fathers psychiatrist and the children.

The LAW has done what the LAW needed to do. I believe in the LAW. Not the witch hunt.

The law should prevail because if we let this parent steal their chidlren then we are saying in effect to our partner and the world steal my children and I hope the law does not protect me and them. Sometimes hard cases make good law, not that this even looks like a hard case as they we brought up in Italy all their lives until 2 years ago.

Presumably you are talking about this:

"In particular, the mother referred to a number of specific incidents that she outlines in her affidavit as evidence supporting her submission on this point. She said that the evidence established:
That the father had hit the girls in the back of the head in the past and on at least one occasion one of the girls had hit her head on the table as a consequence.
That the father had gone to hit one of the girls on the back of the head on one occasion when she put her hand up and his hand bent her thumb back such that it caused her quite a degree of pain.
That one of the girls had asked the father to help her move the table when at the villa one weekend, which request he had unreasonably refused, causing the child to attempt to move the table herself, whereupon it collapsed on her fingers crushing them.
That on one occasion when one of the girls was wearing a plaster cast on her ankle, having suffered a sprain injury whilst participating in Sport 1, the father inappropriately removed the cast during the weekend visit causing the child unnecessary pain.
That in early 2010 the father crashed his motorcycle into a car with one of the children riding pillion in circumstances where, the mother asserts, the father was taking medication for his mental health issues, was speeding and driving with reckless disregard for his own safety and the safety of his daughter who was riding pillion and not appropriately dressed for motor bike riding. The girl suffered some minor injuries and was taken to hospital by ambulance.
The evidence of the mother in respect to all of the above matters is corroborated, at least to some extent, by the reporting of Ms E of the information conveyed to her by the girls during her interviews of them. Indeed, Ms E says at paragraph 32 of her report:
Information provided by the children corroborates [the mother?s] perspective to some degree."

It seems to me that in 13 years of parenting most of us would, if we really racked out brains, be able to come up with a number of incidences of doing stupid things, near misses or accidents that we could blame our partners for.

And the sentence "Information provided by the children corroborates [the mother?s] perspective to some degree" means that the children are mostly agreeing with the mother - which of course they would.

My son tells everyone he tried to break my arm once. My other son nearly killed himself cycling down a hill into a road without a helmet (when his dad was in charge of him), I have lost my temper a couple of times with the kids - once I pushed ds2 away from me and he hit his head on the corner of a table. The motorbike incident is the only one on that list which is a criminal offence - and most people in Italy drive motorbikes like that so I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't considered unusual to have a child on the back of a bike where they live.

Also, my children could complain that I'm on mumsnet while they make their own tea sometimes.

I'm not saying he is perfect, but how many of us are? It seems to me that she has cobbled together every single incident she can think of, and got the girls to back her up to justify her actions in abducting them.

OK, well I don't read it like that, we all bring our own experiences to the table. I also think removing a plastercast is very wrong, unless you are a doctor.

To me corroboration means they agree that the incidents happened, not that they are just agreeing with the mother.

I think that the document gives insight into why she left. Again, I'm not saying that she was right to do so - I never have.

I do believe she was a victim of DA. I thought she may have been, so was not ready to demonise her and now I have read that document in full I believe that my instincts were correct.

ltevedallas posts this :

"Hannah, you should also read paras 32, 78, 83, 84, 88, 89, 93, 94, 96,97,98, 101.

This document is all about whether the children should be returned, which I agree they should have been (albeit in less damaging circumstances), but it makes me understand why the mother left. I can also see why she felt the children were not safe with their father."

the paragraphs he/she advises me to read mostly refer to statements that the mother makes. he/she then goes on to state that he/she understands why the mother left and empathizes with the mother..." the children weren't ( aren't) safe with father.

so here we see the ltevedallas believing what the mother has stated and further ltevedallas is stating that she is giving the mother the benefit of the doubt regarding domestic violence.

Are you aware that you do so at the fathers cost?
Are you aware that every action the mother has made since she stole the children affects those children in a negative way? Yet you claim to care for the children...

your posts confuse me in that your'e appearing to suggest that the mother did an acceptable thing, then in other posts you state that you believe in the judge who says that what the mother did was unacceptable. i think your'e a person that is struggling to accept something that you don't want to. good luck with that, and goodbye.

I didn't know about the domestic violence allegations, nor about the father's mental health issues. This puts a whole new slant on things.

www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/FamCA/2011/485.html

"At that time, a serious incident of domestic violence perpetrated by Mr V against Ms Garning precipitated the separation."

"That in early 2010 the father crashed his motorcycle into a car with one of the children riding pillion in circumstances where, the mother asserts, the father was taking medication for his mental health issues, was speeding and driving with reckless disregard for his own safety and the safety of his daughter who was riding pillion and not appropriately dressed for motor bike riding. The girl suffered some minor injuries and was taken to hospital by ambulance."

I'm waiting for someone to say the hospital and ambulance workers are complete fabrications and that an official court document has been manipulated by the mother.

I completely understand the mother's actions now. It was something I would do myself, in the same circumstances, if I had the courage.

LtEve, I'm sorry but your posts seem just so incredibly naive to someone who has lived through one of these situations.

"Playing computer games" during visits? I had to laugh. In our case the children were coached by their mother to provide details she could use against the father at every possibility, true or not, or highly exaggerated. Pop got a call on the phone when with the children would appear in court records as, "the father works on his phone or computer rather than spend time with the children."

Mum did the same. Difference was Pop wasn't using the children to turn them against mum, which is why mum eventually lost custody, and is why Barrett would have lost custody in Australia. She treats her kids as property to do what she wants.

Is the father good, bad, or perfect? Who knows. I respect his silence in the media and refusal to counterattack the mum. That shows wise forbearance in the interest of his children, sacrificing his public reputation for their sake. But his wanting to keep them out of the spotlight suggests he is decent.

Thanks for that link Hannah, I've posted about some of those allegations but didn't have any 'proof' of them like that you posted.

The "truth is in the middle" comment is also maddening. No, ladies, it's not when one side is so far off the charts. It's reality vs delusion, and the truth is not between them.

Also, the evidence there was no DV was provided by the Australian media when they heeded mum's request that they harass the girls and the father at his home in Florence. The two older girls disobeyed the father and refused to come inside, staying out to speak with the media.

If he was an abuser, they would have been afraid of him. They clearly were not, on the contrary...

In that report of the motorbike accident I don't recall reading anything about the police prosecuting the father for a) speeding, b) riding with reckless disregard for safety, c) riding while under the influence of drugs or d) riding without required protective equipment.

Or are these just a list of the claims the mother has made about an accident that, presumably, she was not present to witness?

segue- do you understand and accept that the mother may have lied about the motorbike accident? - do you accept that there may not have been a domestic violence issue..
lets play pretend for a moment and accept that he did belt her/ pull her hair / call her names whatever.
how does this affect his parenting ability today?
the man had depression issues ending years ago. how does this affect his parenting ability today?
it seems to me that there are people who are suggesting

• " look, this person deserves to have had his kids taken from him because mum says he beat her and i don't like that cause i was beaten "

The kids ( minus the brainwashing ) may disagree with you there. You and I and Forrest J know nothing about domestic violence evidence except the testimony of an accomplished, proven manipulator and liar. I get the feeling the REAL message these people want to post is that mothers can do what they please, whenever...and to whatever man they please. Am I wrong?

yes

The one word of your last post is kind of overshadowed by the childish post you made before that but thanks anyway segue

Hannah, firstly I have been on MN for over 7 years. Regular MNers know me and know I am female. As a brand new joiner trying to insinuate I am a man because I disagree with you makes you look rather silly.

I understand that this is a long thread and as a newbie you may not want to read the whole thing, but you really should. I have NOT condoned what the mother did in any one of my posts. To further reiterate. The mother should NOT have taken the children to Aus and she SHOULD be punished for doing so. She broke the law. Anyone that breaks the law should be punished.

Can I be any clearer?

it seems that segue likes to cut and paste, come on segue...just tell it how it is lol

www.facebook.com/kidswithoutvoices?fref=ts

your posts are as clear a mud to me, have you been this contradictory for the whole seven years?

lteve, lets just call it quits eh? probably for the best i'd say.

Hannah

Is there any disputing that there was domestic violence? the document you linked mentioned a serious incident that was the catalyst for her leaving the marital home.

I agree that she broke the law in taking them, but as I have said all along from the start of this thread, if there was DV then I can understand her actions.

So given that there was DV I haven't changed my mind in that yes she acted illegally, but she was escaping abuse, so I don't judge her too harshly.

Sad to see so many abuse apologists here.