4 sisters returned to Italian father after their Australian Mum took them to Australia.....dragged kicking and screaming onto the plane.

[AmberLeaf]

Apparently the girls aged between 9-15 are dual citizens.

Link sorry its the DM.

Do they not take the childs view into account in Australia?

The girls belong with their mother because that is their clear preference. Most children will naturally favour the mother over the father when push comes to shove. This is nature and has nothing to do with legalities.

As a bloke who has been the resident parent to my own kids for the last ten years, I actually agree with you. Other things being equal I'd usually say kids do lean towards their mum. BUT and it's a big BUT. That does not mean mum can do what she wants, break the law, lie, manipulate then expect everyone to dance to her tune because she is 'mum'.

And that's what's happened here. If she'd stayed in Italy and argued her case then fair enough.

As for the not allowing kids to speak to mum. Given how raw everything is right now and how seemingly mum has poisoned their mind against dad over the last year or two, it seems perfectly sensible to me that they be given a bit of alone time to adjust to the new living arrangements without mum winding them up into an emotional state.

Their mother broke the law. They can move back to their mother when they are 16 or 18 if they wish but they were brought up in Italy and she stole them against the law. It is crucial (a) the Hague Convention is respected - well done Australia and (b) that we try to speed up family proceedings.

I don't see why they cannot talk to their mother and the bigger ones will no doubt find a way.

I wouldn't let my kids speak to their dad for a while if the last time he spoke to them he had called journalists, told them where my children were, spoken to them on the phone (in front of the journalists), had hysterics, and told them to start screaming and try to run away with the journalists.

Which seems to have been the mother's latest tactics

Why is the father saying that he was attacked by the Australian Media when it is an Italian Photographer that has been charged?

Differentname, you seem very invested in this case, do you know any of the parties involved? Have you been involved in the actual courts process? A lot of the things you are saying you are stating as fact - do you know them to be facts, or is it just what you have read on the Internet?

No I am not involved with anyone. Mush of it is from reliable sources & some the court transcript.

Oh, so what you read on the Internet then.

Thanks.

We are all going on what we read on the internet, surely?

And of course that The Hague Convention was set up and enshrined in International Law to prevent parents from abducting their own children, removing them from their other parent and their home, and refusing to return them.

If this thread was about a father of British-born children taking them from their mother to his home country (say, Pakistan for example) and refusing to let them see their mother, everyone would be cheering their return, complaining about them being brainwashed and baying for him to be jailed, no matter what the children said about wanting to stay in Pakistan.

Dallas, where did YOU get your info?

Mary, I'm not arguing that, not at all. The mother broke the law, yes. The children had to be returned under the Hague Convention, yes. A fair trial needs to be held, yes and so on. These are the facts and I fully suport them.

What I don't like are all the posts, written as if they are facts, when in reality they are pieces of information taken from biased news sources in the most part.

I don't like that some people are taking quotes from the fathers FB to show 'how great he is' and then rubbishing the mother's FB. Why is one person's FB page more likely to be the truth than the other?

I don't like the news reports from the Italian papers, I don't like the news reports from the Aus papers. They contradict each other, and of course they will, but again apparently what the Italian news reports is 'true' but what the Australian news reports is 'false'.

What you wrote about the mothers latest tactics - I'll bet you a pound to a penny that I could find the same story with a different slant.

The photo the father displayed of the happy family shot - I was really pleased to see that. I was so disturbed by how unhappy the girls were, that I breathed a sigh of relief to see that photo - except when I looked closer it turned out that it was actually taken 6 months ago whilst the children were in Foster care .

Both parties are manipulating the press to their own ends - but on here it seems the father is to be believed unreservedly. Based on nothing more than who can use google the fastest.

The problem for me is the children and how they are feeling, nothing more.

maybe the mother was escaping years of abuse - we don't know.
maybe the mother is a bitch who has alienated her children - we don't know.
Maybe the father is a controlling arse that treats the women around him like slaves - we don't know.
Maybe the father is a wonderful man that will give his children a wonderful life - we don't know.

ltevedallas- I think differentname is actually using the court documents for her information, all of which seem to be available on line, that is different from just quoting press.

I don't think that is the case bruffin, For eg, the posts at 04:11, 08:03 and 08:16.

All info from FB.

The mother has no money. She is a student. I doubt she could afford the flight, let alone be able to rent/buy a place to live. And if the village is in the sticks (as it sounds - but I dont know) then she won't get a job either

[Father is wrong to push for the children to be returned] when it is not what they want

All they know is that their mother tried to keep them, they were dragged from her arms, the 'system' didn't listen to them, and it's all their dads fault

You have stated the above on this thread as fact. How is this info different to mine? And yes, I have used court documents. But some of it is also from facebook. Where the father's side are having a reasonable, non inflammatory discussion as to what is happening, even with hose who are not agreeing/supporting him. Where as the mothers' side is shouting & yelling & being rude to anyone who dares question her. They are deleting those who don't agree with her.

I know who I believe.

8:16 - it is common knowledge that when the girls left Italy, they did not speak English. [Ms Garning] said it would take a long time for her girls, who are aged seven to 13 and speak no English, to adapt to the Australian way of life from an interview the mother did that she took into court as evidence

8.03 - That the boyfriend is 20. Heard on the radio this morning.

8.04 - Yes on fb. But also on news.

But thank you for giving me a chance to clear that up!

Where did YOU get your info from?

I don't have Facebook, I have read (some of) the court reports and the judges statements.

As to the statements about money - the father lodged 8,000 Aus$ to pay for flights home and was to provide somewhere for the mother and children to live. This was court ordered and agreed. And the village isn't in the sticks. It is just outside Florence.

Sorry, last time should have been 4.11

There are court documents about children on the internet? Wow. In my innocence I didn't think that would be permitted.

I have linked to the money aspect. You asked me for a day or so ago, so if you look, you will find it. But in case you can't

Sat 06-Oct-12 05:12:42. Which was the court document as written by the judge.

Yes, there are extracts. I was surprised too. The children aren't named, but both the parents are.

The court documents are on the internet, anonymised. Links from herewww.facebook.com/notes/the-4-hidden-sisters/chronology-of-proceedings/296401390458541

I wonder who put them on the internet.

The bottom line is however much the girls may not like it there is am ore important principle of upholding the Hague Convention and hard cases like this where the processes are slow will help ensure no mother or father steal children away again without court permission in those countries who accept the Convention.

What we really needed was on day 31 after their supposed 30 day holiday an Austrlian court was putting those girls back on a plane to Italy as their mother had broken her word that it was a holiday. The psychological issues are all caused by the fact of the delay and that's the major issue here - how to speed up family law cases so they are dealt with urgently.

Line, I guess it is more the judges findings of the case, rather than court documents.

AmberLeaf, good question. I think her lawyer is saying that the Italian court needs to take a position on visitation because Laura Garrett lost custody in Australia or was determined by a judge there to be an inadequate parent. Maybe someone who speaks some Italian can help.

Bottom line: no way any court (Italian or other) would let her waltz in and have unsupervised visitation after kidnapping her kids and putting them through this ordeal. She'll be lucky to spend a few hours with them on weekends in some neutral institute.

And my point was not that she lied before but that she's still lying now. it's shameful to make her daughters feel they will never see her again and then show up the following week as if nothing. Sick. What parent would intentionally traumatise their children like this?

The link I saw them through was an online family law journal, with links to lots of family law cases. I suspect maybe things are different in Australia, and there may not be the secrecy about family law cases that there is in the UK.

Differentname,
I get that you want to believe the worst of the mother - I really do, but I believe you are presenting your views as statements of fact - which they are not.

The mother has no money. She is a student In the court transcripts.

I doubt she could afford the flight, let alone be able to rent/buy a place to live Personal opinion - I don't know many students that could afford a flight from Australia to Italy. Do you?

And if the village is in the sticks (as it sounds - but I dont know) then she won't get a job either I said If and I said I didn't know. How easy do you think it is to get a job in a village out in the sticks?

All they know is that their mother tried to keep them, they were dragged from her arms, the 'system' didn't listen to them, and it's all their dads fault I said all THEY [as in the girls] know in the context of the rest of my post - ie looking at how distressed they were, in their minds it wasn't their mother that caused this - it was everybody else. Hysterical people rarely think rationally.

Where the father's side are having a reasonable, non inflammatory discussion as to what is happening Have you read the 'other' side? Have you noted how many posts have been deleted from the fathers FB page? It is all very clever and well controlled.

The three posts I have pointed out I believe are goading posts - the 'Just saying', 'worthy of note' (why exactly?). I don't understand why you posted them.

Mary,

As to the statements about money - the father lodged 8,000 Aus$ to pay for flights home and was to provide somewhere for the mother and children to live. This was court ordered and agreed. And the village isn't in the sticks. It is just outside Florence.

I hadn't read about the money, asked differentname where she got the info, and I also thanked her for answering.

I didn't know where the village was, or what 'type' of village it was - although I have to say, the Italian village where I was arrested was literally just outside a major city - we'd gone there to see if we could get cheaper accn. It was like walking through a rip in Time! Life out in the sticks isn't as progressive as life in a city, and I was concerned that the girls could be going somewhere where attitudes are very different from what they are used to. Nonna 'running' the family for her sons is not unusual. We found attitudes like that all over Italy, and funnily enough also in Cyprus when we lived there.