4 sisters returned to Italian father after their Australian Mum took them to Australia.....dragged kicking and screaming onto the plane.

[AmberLeaf]

Apparently the girls aged between 9-15 are dual citizens.

Link sorry its the DM.

Do they not take the childs view into account in Australia?

Indeed they are the court's findings, and are published on that basis as a matter of course by the Australasian Legal Information Institute, which you would see if you followed the links.

I am adding to the discussion, dallas. Just like you. Yes, I have read the other side & as I said, given the attitudes of both sides, I know where I stand. I didn't realise you were critiquing my way of writing.

Oh & she does have money. Father has made 8k available to her. In the court transcripts.

LtEveDallas, I have the unfortunate advantage of my family having lived a similar experience. I know that mental health problems exist with abductors a high amount of time, personality disorders and sociopathic tendencies. Now that we know what mum is, everything is predictable.

So yes, Internet, but I've been calling Lying Mum's every next move since last week if you read my posts. It's like she's following an old familiar script for me and she hasn't deviated once. Unfortunately for her daughters.

Aren't people allowed to think a mother is in the wrong?

Qwertyytrewq

It would appear not.

Pontassieve is a Florence suburb. We established that already. Population 20,000

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontassieve

Italian villages in 1990 and Italian villages now will be massively different.

Really - these are rapidly moving times.

this is partly what puts me off EVER living in Oz. They're more American about things in their dealings.

Ok, look, you obviously aren't getting what I am saying, so I'll stop.

I for one am NOT ready to demonise ANY parent, male or female without the facts. Blindly believing the mother OR the father is wrong. Slagging off the mother because you have decided to believe the father is wrong. Me saying "The father is an abusive bastard that the mother had to escape from" would be wrong.

For me it is like the Ched Evans case - the girl that was raped by Ched Evans was demonised all over the internet, called a slag, abused left right and centre by Evans supporters. She is still being abused now, even though he was found guilty and jailed.

I refuse to make a judgement on this woman for anything other than the facts - God forbid that evidence came to light that the father was abusive, how would I feel then? Fucking awful.

MY view is:

The mother was in the wrong to take the children to Australia. This is a fact and she will be dealt with appropriately.

The father was in the wrong to allow the children to be forced onto the plane by strangers. This is a personal opinion, I believe he should have been there to receive them, and if he was maybe they could have all travelled together instead of being split up.

The children are innocent and are the ones that are suffering the most.

*Italian villages in 1990 and Italian villages now will be massively different.

Really - these are rapidly moving times*

I'd like to believe that, really I would. Although I had the same experiences in Cyprus, and that was in 2009.

"And if the village is in the sticks (as it sounds - but I dont know) then she won't get a job either I said If and I said I didn't know. How easy do you think it is to get a job in a village out in the sticks?"

The 'village' is a town of 20,000, 15 minutes from Florence by regular train, and where the mother was employed previously, in the tourism industry, an industry that attracts 8 million annual visitors to the city of Florence alone.

She would find it extremely easy to find a job given that she was fully bilingual in Italian and English and had spent her entire adult life, from 15 to 30, in Italy.

"Where the father's side are having a reasonable, non inflammatory discussion as to what is happening Have you read the 'other' side? Have you noted how many posts have been deleted from the fathers FB page? It is all very clever and well controlled. "

? Well yes, I wouldn't expect them to allow random abuse to be posted on there.

I toured Italy extensively in 2004 and again in 2010 and there wasn't much change.

Cyprus - is not Italy.

My mother is from a small village - attitudes now are unrecognisable from when I was growing up.

Predictable next moves:

• dad goes to court and asks for mum to have only protected visits pending psych eval of entire family (hints of this from the lawyer in the Italian article)
• court will grant dad's request (don't see what choice)
• mum will keep up her media campaign, which will hurt her in Italian courts as much or more than it did in Australia. Best thing for her would be to shut up and calmly visit her DD's but she won't. This is all about her not her children.
• boyfriend issues of older daughters will continue to be huge challenge for dad (ahem...I think I called that too...they are at an age where boyfriends are seen as far more important than we are)
• courts will order dad to take girls to therapy if dad is not already doing it

Yet in order for many many m ore children not to suffer we hvae to stick to the Hague Convention. It is only that which stops any of us writing on this thread finding that next week our chidlren's father has put them on a plane to a Covention country and is planning not to return them. It is absolutely vital all mumsnetters shout from the roof tops how much we support the Hague convention and how much we are against parents of either gender taking children abroad without a court order.

The way the father may have managed the children getting home is almost nothing to do with this - it will be forgotten in a few weeks. The fact the mother took them without permission putting two fingers up to the courts and the legal system is not something most of us will forget .

The children suffer because of the mother's actions and her breach of the law.

They also suffer in my view because the courts don't return chidlren in 2 days but instead 2 years. Whilst I accept there needs to be a bit of time - 1 - 2 weeks say?) to check things I do not accept 2 years is okay because of the nature of children. It is an even bigger issue in no contact cases in the UK where the status quo is what is often then retained in the interests of the child. So if father (or mother) steals baby when it is 3 months and looks after it 24/7 for 3 years few judges would take it from him - here I am assuming both parents in England and denies other parent any contact at all. In other words you can play the system through using the delays built into it to bond children and form their views. That is very wrong. If the system had the aberrant parent who has stolen them or denied contact before the magistrates or someone else within say 48 hours of missing a visit it would be so much easier and less heart rending to sort out these issues. I would much rather we put money into this than foreign aid and foreign wars.

"For me it is like the Ched Evans case - the girl that was raped by Ched Evans was demonised all over the internet, called a slag, abused left right and centre by Evans supporters. She is still being abused now, even though he was found guilty and jailed.
"

That is absurd.

How do you compare a rape victim with a child abductor?

Just ridiculous.

And she is the one trying to demonise the husband from what I've seen.

Have you seen references to for instance the grandmother saying she would kill the children in the English-speaking media?

I didn't think so. This is despite the fact that the mother's own lawyer reported it to the court (after which the mother's family sacked her), and it is a fact, reported in several court judgements.

The demonization is all one way.

On reflection, I find it ironic that the Australian media that responds each time mum beckons is instead sealing her fate.

No way a court will let the kids be put to this risk. Not in Europe. Mum's campaign is self-glorifying but wholly counterproductive to the cause of getting her girls back.

The Australian media has virtually ensured mum will get only limited access, which is a rare thing in Italy (mothers lose custody in less than 2 percent of cases)

How do you compare a rape victim with a child abductor

What if the child abductor was escaping abuse? We don't know she wasn't. We don't know that she was, but reasonable doubt alone means we should not be calling her names and disbelieving her story. How damaging would that be if her story is true?

I believe in the MN "I Believe You" campaign. I support it, I follow it and I help where I can. I refuse to blindly accept that ANYONE deserves the vitirol that has been shown on this thread.

It's all very well to have an "I believe you attitude". But in this case it has been found in court, by a judge, that a person has broken the law and lied on numerous occasions.

Should we continue to believe her, blindly? Or should we choose to believe the father who has yet to have any wrong-doing proven against him.

I really don't understand where you are coming from here?

(Skippy, I clicked your link but it says 'This content is currently unavailable'.)

Bigfat, how are we American thinking? Because we abided by the Hague convention & sent the children home. I for one am bloody pleased that the judge had the balls to do that! After that, I am proud to live here!

If my childrens father was abusing them id break the law to get them away however misguided it may be.

Why is everyone so sure this man wasn't abusive?

This is the part I don't get.

She behaved in a desparate way in what she did so it makes enough sense for me to have reasonable amount of doubt as to what sort of man he is.

Agree 100% with LTEve I cant condemn laura without knowing for sure this man is not abusive.

The father was in the wrong to allow the children to be forced onto the plane by strangers

The father didn't allow that. The mother did. They would not have been forced in 2011. They would not have been forced last week. Their mother did not allow them to go peacefully.

Their father had nothing to do how they got on that plane.

I refuse to make a judgement on this woman for anything other than the facts Yet you are happy to pass judgement on the father, with little information. And that information has been given to you by the mother, via the media.

Alrighty then!