4 sisters returned to Italian father after their Australian Mum took them to Australia.....dragged kicking and screaming onto the plane.

[AmberLeaf]

Apparently the girls aged between 9-15 are dual citizens.

Link sorry its the DM.

Do they not take the childs view into account in Australia?

Niceguy, as a matter of interest, did you re-read my posts?

It's such an awful situation. Part of me thinks the wishes of the children should be put first as I always thought that children's interests should come before the adults. But if they've been brain washed then that's so unfair on the father. But then isn't it better that something is unfair for the father than for the children?

Then I know if I was in the fathers position I probably wouldn't think that. I'd want them back and just hope that I could somehow undo the brainwashing and rebuild a relationship.

Poor, poor kids.

I'm with Xenia - system here is shockingly bad for everyOne, children mothers and fathers, its too long, drawn out and adversarial.

GoldShip

does anyone know what she was running from? I think until we know that it's not fair to condemn this woman

She alleges abuse/violence to both her and the children.

@LtEve. Sorry been away for the weekend and things had moved on. I've just looked at your last reply.

I think the point I'm trying to make overall is that the law is the law. It's clear and in this case unambiguous. Yes the kids were upset but that was entirely the fault of the mother. She put the court in an impossible situation. I'm sure the police didn't like their job much that day but they had to do it.

Like I've said repeatedly. You can't let this mum get away with clearly lying and intentionally breaking the law just because her kids are upset. Otherwise where do you draw the line for everyone else? What about all the other parents who then think "Oh well if she can kidnap her kids...so can I!"

I'm sorry the kids are upset. Really I am. But she had it within her power for the last two years and repeated opportunities to avoid this confrontation. She decided not to.

The emotional trauma inflicted on those kids are of her making. Not the courts, not the police. Whether or not the police should have been armed or not is a side issue and a minor point.

Nobody wanted this situation except mum. She got what she wanted. A scene.

People keep mentioning abuse.

But as far as I can see, she never even alleged any abuse until after she had got to Australia.

And there is no doubt that the mother and her family have been emotionally abusive, but there seems no proof that the father has done anything other than follow the correct legal steps and try to keep in contact with his children.

But what about the issue at the embassy when she was trying to leave Italy? they rescheduled her flights earlier because they feared he may turn up and create. Didn't she allege abuse then?

Up until then, they had been happily sharing custody, and at no time had she mentioned anything about abuse. Not until after she planned to take them out of the country.

It looks as though she claimed abuse when he said she couldn't take them abroad to live.

From what I've read they hadn't been happily sharing custody though.

Re the abuse, broken bones [the childrens] were mentioned.

Where did you read that?

The girls will have been back in Italy for a few days now. Is there any word on how they are or has the media chase just ceased?

We live in an increasingly global society and the dynamics of dual national families are complex when when break down. Certainly if I had kids overseas with a national of the country and the relationship broke down I would be tempted to return to my country but what does that mean for the kids?Who knows - I certainly don't.

Why didn't these girls want to go 'back' to italy - is it because they didn't want to be seperated from their mother or is it because of something else (eg they prefer the country they are in now, or they have been 'brainwashed').

Oh just seen a news report - it seems the mother can go to italy as the only way she can be with her children. Is that right?

The mother could always go to Italy. She just didn't want to, which is understandable. But you can't take your children away from their home, their other parent and their whole life just because you don't want to live there. It is (quite rightly) against the law.

She told the children she couldn't go with them, firstly because she wasn't allowed, and then she told them she would be put in jail. Then their granny told them she would kill herself if they went back to Italy.

No wonder the poor kids are upset

Mary I can't remember where I read that, I will try to find it though if its still in my search history.

But I don't think this is the whole story. She is considered a criminal in Italy I guess but she's also possibly considered a criminal in australia because althought the kids have dual nationality they are Italian residents.

It must be hard. Hearing the voices of the children they are certainly OK in autralia in terms of their language skills as italian born youngsters.

Oh who knows - it's so hard for all of them.

Yesm, she could move to Italy. I remember talking to a man whose wife said - I am moving back to Australia (this was this year) and I am taking the 2 children (school age - son just won place at leading boys' school in London). Either you come or I take them. This man let her take them. I said to him if my partner did that even ifh e mvoed them to Saudi I would take a tent and camp in the desert right near them. He said back to me that he was too selfish although he will miss them and have them back here every summer. It is a real issue. It may sound racist but it is true - if you avoid marrying a foreigner there is much much less risk. She might move them to her mother's in Scunthorpe but it'#s not quite as expensive to visit them there.

The speed issue - well the Hague Convention is very important and we must respect it even if children have got used to an illegal means of living with a parent who has kidnapped/stolen them without court consent and even if the chidlren want otherwise otherwise we are sending out a message to all fathers and motehrs - take child abroad and bond with it and then you keep it.

What I would really like is contact decisions in 7 days. If you can save a British bank with teams of lawyers working 24 hour shifts in a weekend you can open a court at mid night on Friday night to deal with contact disputes, you can get each side's psychological expert to write a report in 2 days. Things do not have to take the 4 months social workers and CAFCASS and other low paid low grade state workers take. I think we need much much much shorter time limits on child contact issues.

It could be even simpler than that Xenia.

In cases where children have been moved out of a country without permission of one parent, you don't need psych reports or lawyers, or appeals.

There should be an instant (next plane) return, exactly as there would be in the family had no visas. And it could be sorted out in the courts in the country of residence of the children which is what Hague was set up for.

It shouldn't have taken two years, because she should have been barred from going to court in Australia at all.

But we don't know what's going on. In that two years has the father who clearly loves his kids loads actually gone to see his kids or has it been just a legal case ie he's staying put and his lawyers just getting then back to him?

He went out in May to bring them home. There were photos of them together on the Facebook page started by the aunt that was linked above. The fb page has now been removed.

This May - din't he go straight out when he realised his daughters were not coming back home?

We don't know how many times he has been outbreaksand its irrelevant. It shouldn't have taken two years for him to get them back.

He has been out a few times. Because he has visited them, and attended more than one court case.

It does seem the mother has refused to let him see the girls on some of the visits - but it's hard to know exactly what is happening as the media seem to have been completely blinded by the mother's story.

The only fact we know absolutely is that she broke the law by taking them in the first place, by refusing to return them at least twice and by taking them into hiding.

Well, if it were my kids I'd be straight over there.

Hope the girls are OK - they'll be back at school now.

Dual nationality relationships can be very hard when it comes to kids. So many posts on here when a woman can no longer stand her partner but has nothing else and no family in the UK and wants to go home with the child. You can see it from both sides.

The point is: the girls didn't want to go. They were not allowed to talk to the judge to put forward their point of view. This is just one disgusting element of this case and Australian law. They were not given a chance to speak in court. Anyone who saw last night's footage saw that they were screaming for their mother. This goes beyond "brainwashing". They simply didn't want to be there and this is what they've consistently said all along. The girls are old enough to be independent human beings with a life outside of the parents, and they were happy, well-adjusted kids, active socially and at school. They are really at an age where it is more about the community and less about the parent. They are certainly old enough to voice their preference, why wasn't this given any weight in court? I agree that the mother was wrong to take the children away in the first place, if there was no abuse. But the father certainly comes across as controlling; we just don't know the circumstances of life in Italy for the mother. But the girls are old enough to decide for themselves, and this is what very few of you are acknowledging. As far as our court was concerned they had no rights themselves. Also, the father can't guarantee that the mother won't be charged with a criminal offence in Italy. She could be arrested if she goes back. It is up to the Italian government if any charges are laid against the mother and it is likely they would be. The father knows this. The girls belong with their mother.

They haven't consistently said it [baffled]

A year ago they said they loved their dad and liked living in Italy.

Letting them stay in Australia with their mum is saying to all parents "if you can take your children away from their other parent, go far enough away and hide for long enough, you can keep them".

Which is a dangerous message to send out to all the parents out there who are afraid that is what their ex-partners will do.

And how does the father come across as controlling? By wanting to live in the same country has his children?

When the case is held in Italy, the judge will take the older kids' opinions into consideration. The Australian judge can't because the case cannot be held in Australia.

Why do the girls belong with their mother and not their father?