George Osborne Gets Booed Handing Medals at the Paralympic Athletics Medal Ceremony

[ttosca]

The nation boos at the Tory scum:

Yes, I think most people would feel such an award was a rather vulgar, and not really want anything to do with it.

I find it weird that people even think about 'paying' tax. Either you have PAYE or a tax account you pay into and don't give the tax a second thought except periodic checks to make sure nothing has been miscalculated. To mentally claim that money as your own possession is where the problem lies.

When you get a gross salary, you quickly do the maths in your head to see what the net will be and move on (a bit like using a different currency on holiday). You don't go about Scruge-like looking greedily/resentfully at the gross pay thinking "If only all that were mine". Living in a civilised and fair society is what you get back for 'paying' tax- obviously!

And a lot of highly paid work is actually parasitic - for example intellectual property lawyers who cripple innovation for a living. There is nothing 'virtuous' about their larger tax contribution.

I think that most people would agree that people who pay high tax because they have created wealth that wouldn't otherwise exist (and created jobs and increased prosperity) have done a good thing.

Some people also receive high salaries because they have an exceptional skill or have worked very hard, and their endeavours benefit everybody else.

However, some people pay high taxes because they have just fallen on their feet and happen to do a job/have the right parents/been in the right place at the right time and by luck happen to receive a larger slice of the pie.

You can't really tell from somebody's tax return which category they fall into. Equally, some higher tax payers are left with very little after tax because of high outgoings (supporting elderly parents, caring for children with additional needs). Tax is not a very good way to evaluate people's non-monetary worth.

And you can't not think about paying tax if you have non-PAYE earnings.

"And you can't not think about paying tax if you have non-PAYE earnings."

But if you simply pay into your tax account it doesn't have to be much different.

"I think that most people would agree that people who pay high tax because they have created wealth that wouldn't otherwise exist (and created jobs and increased prosperity) have done a good thing."

Yes, starting businesses and employing others is a good thing - but business owners do actually profit from those they employ and depend upon them too, it is not altruism they are motivated by, but the necessity to hire people. If they have made the business successful to the point they are considered 'high earners' then those employees are doing a good job for them.

"Some people also receive high salaries because they have an exceptional skill or have worked very hard, and their endeavours benefit everybody else."

And many people who fit into this category also have a very low salary too.

I would conclude that salary has bugger-all to do with an individauls actual worth, so to start entertaining ideas of 'thanks' for high tax payers is inappropriate.

I'll say it again. The 'thanks' they get is their high salary.

Hear, hear, Foodunit.

I always want to ask those people who think the entire value of a business is created by one person at the top, do they dismiss the contribution of soldiers in Afghanistan? Do they think the senior commander is the only person who deserves thanks?

Even so the issue for higher earners is often should I work today at the weekend and generate say £xx more than half of which goes to the state or not bother or at a higher end of the scale should I live in this supposedly green and pleasant land where people seem to be jealous or or move elsewhere where tax rates are lower. if you put enough rich people off with very high tax rates they just cease making the effort. July's tax receipts showed that to an extent - much lower than expected hence another ound of cuts will be needed.

www.debtbombshell.com/

Perhaps a thank you letter to the minimum wage workers who struggle all their lives and never once complain about having to pay taxes? :)

Seriously, the thought of a thank you for following the law is so bizarre to me. Makes it sound like the majority are criminals!

"should I work today at the weekend and generate say £xx more than half of which goes to the state or not bother or at a higher end of the scale should I live in this supposedly green and pleasant land where people seem to be jealous or or move elsewhere where tax rates are lower."

Ah, the woes of those that don't have to work the weekend just to cover the basics.... Truly heartwrenching choices those...

Hah, FoodUnit, and then there's "Shall I work completely unpaid this weekend because my work is actually necessary and real people will suffer if it isn't done?"

"I would conclude that salary has bugger-all to do with an individauls actual worth" - exactly my point - it's just that I was trying to go for the "higher rate tax people not necessarily all spawn of devil" angle.

"But if you simply pay into your tax account it doesn't have to be much different."

I'm not sure what you mean by a 'tax account'. Somebody with a small business working from home, for instance, has to make decisions about whether they will pay income tax, corporation tax or tax on dividends. They will have to decide which household expenses are business expenses (e.g. mortgage interest if they have an office in their house), and how this will affect capital gains tax when they sell their house.

These aren't clear cut decisions. Paying more tax will no doubt benefit the Chancellor, but may put them out of business, which will result in less tax receipts over all.

And then there's Inheritance tax, stamp duty, CGT on gifts to children etc. etc. Tax is not straightforward, and tax advice is not all about rich people with off sure bank accounts.

off shore

Xenia may i ask how old you are. In one of your posts you say you were at uni in 1979. And you mentioned you are currently living in a one bedroom flat with children.

I was trying to go for the "higher rate tax people not necessarily all spawn of devil" angle.

Which was kind of my motivation too merrymouse. Only my comments regarding acknowledgement and appreciation have been taken to the extreme due to Xenia?s twist on actual awards and formal thank yous at tax payer?s expense etc. which I?m not suggesting at all.

I was hoping to highlight and acknowledge the good that can be done with healthy taxation of those turning a healthy profit in the upper bracket to encourage increased ethical behaviour.

And btw, I know that Xenia is wont to accuse women of lacking in ambition, especially when talking of doing unpaid overtime because the job needs done.

So can I point out, Xenia, from what you post on MN I've demonstrated considerably more academic ambition than you. Your posts elsewhere describing you supposedly "showing initiative to get to university" make me roar with laughter - good job you didn't go to my school, you'd never have made it out of the starting blocks.

The difference between us is that your ambition always was, according to you, fundamentally about money. And mine never was. Which was fortunate as it turns out, as for years I've been too ill to travel so owning an island or a yacht would be pointless for me.

"I'm not sure what you mean by a 'tax account'. Somebody with a small business working from home, for instance, has to make decisions about whether they will pay income tax, corporation tax or tax on dividends. They will have to decide which household expenses are business expenses (e.g. mortgage interest if they have an office in their house), and how this will affect capital gains tax when they sell their house. These aren't clear cut decisions. Paying more tax will no doubt benefit the Chancellor, but may put them out of business, which will result in less tax receipts over all. And then there's Inheritance tax, stamp duty, CGT on gifts to children etc. etc. Tax is not straightforward, and tax advice is not all about rich people with off sure bank accounts."

This is irrelevant really - a business owner is not necessarily going to be a 'high earner' -small businesses owners have to do their accounting too. The message is still the same - put income tax money to one side as you earn so that you don't ever get into the idea that it is yours - and get an accountant to help you with all those decisions. The same goes for selling your house - you will have to pay stamp duty, accept it, factor it into your overall budget and get on with it.

And all this stuff about 'benefit the Chancellor'... tax goes into paying for infrastructure, education of employable people, facilities, etcetera. We benefit from the investment of our ancestors today - eg sewers and so on. Stop being tight arses and thinking that you are 'giving to the Chancellor' - maybe see paying tax as 'giving back' what your country has given you.

Thank you FoodUnit. I deleted the second half of my planned post - and now you've said it much better than me.

And btw I'm glad for you that you've got what you wanted, Xenia.

A shame you can't return the compliment and appreciate the work of those who make your "success" possible.

There is too much here for me to reply to. I have never said I live in a one bed flat. I did say on this or another thread that as a family if I did not work we would be entitled to £18k housing benefit alone and that I had assumed instead we would if we were on state benefits, be crammed in a tiny place but instead the state is very generous. What else was I being asked?

The comments above about people having decisions to take about tax are true. Obviously some women are so very poor they have no issues over choosing whether to take out a pension, who will work within a couple or both to obtain and what they will pay into a pension or ISA and obtain tax relief on it. Many other are not and consider these issues every week as part of planning of family finances. Others are self employed and have the additional issues to consider mentioned above.

Where have I said I don't appreciate the efforts of others. I've always paid those who work with or for me very well. I go round thanking people all the time. it's one reason people keep coming for me with work because I am pretty nice to people.

Also it is totally wrong that I picked a career for money. I adore the intellectual challenge of my work day in day out. It changes all the time. It is absoulteyl fascinating. I picked it for both reasons - absolutely wonderful work, high paid, high status, ability to work for yourself as long as you want etc etc.

I am not quite sure where we are on the thread. 1% of us pay 30% of the tax recovered and levels of tax are getting so high tax revenues are dropping which damgaes the poor. In any event the coffers are bare. Most people paying tax are the squeezed middle. There are not enough very tich to obtain much more tax from them much as the poor would adore that that be so so it is the middle income earners and those on the £30k - £70k from whom any extra tax will be needed just to service our massive debt timebomb - just to pay interest on the debt never mind invest in public service. They have run the country (Labour) like the worst coping benefits scrounger, spending without any consideration for what we can afford - they have been the worst kind of housewife and now the poor suffer for it. Thanks Labour.

Labour's 'worst kind of housewife' behaviour included Surestart, Child Trust Funds, etc. They invested in the future generation. The poor gained. The 'small state' ideology that the coalition press ahead with in an economic crisis will hurt the poor, not labour's prior investments.

And yes the 'squeezed middle'... that happens by raising VAT. The only income bracket that has benefited from the coalition is the top rate tax payers.

You make no secret of your contempt for teachers, Xenia, for example.

Your seem to think that because your contribution to the country is in money, rather than in essential activities, that this somehow puts you over other people. As shown by your belief above that you deserve special thank you certificates and trips to Downing St for paying tax. Despite the fact that you already have a reward for your work in, er, being well paid.

I just clicked on Xenia's debtbombshell link

McAffee went "WHOA! Do you really want to go there?"

Wonderfully ironic

Is that a link to the Labour Party website?

I have no contempt for teachers. They do good work. Also my own work is certainly an essential activity. I have never said I was over anyone. However I do think higher earners bear far far too much of the tax burden and indeed no one has had such massive tax rises as the well off. They were hit first and have kept being hit. even when eventually the 52% tax/NI goes down to 47% that will still mean no tax allowance so 47% will still be over 50% for many. That is 10% more than the 40% which was just about acceptable for many years.

There is no political party in the UK who wants a small state and low taxes. Labour and the Coalition are all much of a dull muchness.