Ian Tomlinson's death 'not caused by Simon Harwood'?

[Solopower]

No doubt the court that acquitted SH of IT's death had access to more information. I know it's simplistic, but I wonder if Ian Tomlinson would have died if he hadn't been pushed?

He said he was scared of the crowd at the time and his blood was up after having been humiliated by someone who wrote graffiti on a police van. So that's understandable then.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18851486

Thugs and goons, legalised to harm others. He is lower than a regular criminal, for abusing power.

His wife disgusted me, shame on her.

Echosierra99 it is annoying and inaccurate when everyone who does a particular job is given a bad name by a criminal few. I'm sure the bankers feel the same way!

But there's a huge sense of injustice here, and real fear. When you are in police custody you feel extremely vulnerable. You know they could do anything to you and it would be your word against theirs and who would believe you?

It's especially scary for young people and those who go on demos.

What are the police told before they go to a demo? Is it 'These are citizens who pay your wages, who think they have a legitimate cause for protest, who can't get their voice heard any other way, who are exercising their democratic right to protest'? Or is it 'These are lawless thugs who are a danger to themselves and others and who are trying to bring down the state'?

And why can't they be trained to identify and focus only on the small minority who are not peaceful? Why do they fail to distinguish between different types of demonstrators?

I know it must be extremely scary for them. But they are trained to do this and carry shields, wear protective clothing, helmets, etc.

Some of the coppers go looking for a good ruck. Like that bastard who dragged the guy with cerebal palsy out of his wheelchair.

edam

Someone dying while they are in a police cell doesn't imply that it was caused by the police.

Fireice but 333 people dying in police custody? What does that imply?

Does anyone know why he was charged with manslaughter rather than, for example, assault, or another of the offences which translate as "hitting someone illegally and doing them harm"?

Is it because the subsequent death meant that manslaughter was the only available charge, or is it something else?

Some of those people will have died of natural causes, the same as if they had been in their own beds that night instead of a cell. Maybe the stress of being arrested and placed in a cell increases the risk of that. I dont know what 333 deaths represents as an increase in the normal death rate for a similar group of people not in police custody?
I dont think that 333 people have been murdered by the police in the cells.

Let's hope not, Fireice!

For what its worth it is also counted as a death in police custody if someone dies after being released, I think within 24 hours, so some of them could well have been in their own beds!

Yeah, right, all 333 died of natural causes, it's just a coincidence that they were in the cells at the time. Just like it used to be a coincidence that so many people fell down the stairs at the police station. If someone is ill, or injured, or drunk enough to be at risk of dying, they should be in a hospital, not in a cell.

In the last 22 years, more than 1,000 people have died in or shortly after they have been in custody. Police shootings, run over by cop cars are included in those figures - were they 'natural causes' as well?

This is the study here looking at the 333 deaths, link.

Thank you for useful links. But Fireice, isn't the IPCC part of the problem?
How 'independent' is it?

It looks like the figures were subject to independent analysis.

I dont know enough about the IPCC to say how independent it is.

OK. Thanks.

DukeHumphrey - the IPCC took so long to investigate the case, charges for lesser offences such as Common Assault had timed out as they must be laid within 6 months. Same as for the Jody McIntyre case.

Thanks, Catkins - it seemed an odd charge and though I didn't follow the trial that closely I am not wholly surprised the evidence didn't support a manslaughter conviction.

The IPCC is shit. They were the ones telling lies about Mark Duggan, helping to spark the riots. They treat families with contempt and to say they are cosy with the police is a massive understatement. How handy that they take so long to 'investigate' that charges have timed out...

This case is purely about the actions of that officer. Not the "Police" in general.

for those of you quoting "333 deaths" in custody as proof of a thugish attitude of police you need to get some perspective.

there are around 5400 arrests a day in England and Wales. those 333 deaths are not to be ignored but they are hardly an indication of a general problem.

if you honestly think we the police spend or time throwing "scumbags" down the stairs and beating confessions out of people i invite you to spend some time as a police officer, volunteer as a special and witness for yourself the huge amount of effort that goes in everyday across the country by officers to safeguard those who are vulnerable.

if you have read some of those posts and wondered if those 333 people have spent their last hours in a cell being beaten by a thug in a uniform then please please please dont watch so much television...

i'm not saying this cant and never happens but thankfully its very very rare. When it does happen it makes the headlines and mumsnet!

interesting idea that someone just happens to stab themselves in the heart while in police custody in Sean Rigg's case staff at a mental health clinic called police repeatedly asking for help - they failed to turn up but later arrested him on the street, restrained him and he died.

I heard about a very disturbing case on Radio 4 which I can't find right now, but a family called for help with a young man who was disturbed and needed sectioning but was NO danger to anyone other than himself. The police barged in, treated him a very heavy handed manner, and he ended up dead.

smiley culture that was awful. there was a big march about it in london.

then the police wonder why people don't trust them and there is unrest