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What punishment do you think the British legal system would deem appropriate for someone who rapes a 5 year old?

417 replies

Mintyy · 03/07/2012 22:53

I'm not going to link because I saw this in the Daily Mail. But, really, am truly horrified.

OP posts:
SardineQueen · 04/07/2012 11:26

It's not a serious crime.
The judge said so.
It was a spur of the moment one-off.
His punishment is to not look at porn on his phone for a couple of years.
He presumably continues to live as a neighbour to his victim.
Doesn't sound like a serious crime to me.

timetoask · 04/07/2012 11:29

It is sickening that society has made all this disgusting material available for children to see. A young man has a malleable mind.

Something serious needs to be done to stop inappropriate material being so readily available to people.

seeker · 04/07/2012 11:29

Absolutely- it does seem extraordinary that he's still living next door, if he is. And it does seem extraordinary that there doesn't seem to be any element of punishment involved.

But I think the lock him up and throw away the key, or even worse, brigade are wrong as well.

Cheddars · 04/07/2012 11:29

Yes if it was really serious he would have been banned from using his xbox for 5 years.

Of course he shouldn't be tried as an adult Seeker, but if it was your son I bet you'd give him a more severe punishment than the judge did.

GooseyLoosey · 04/07/2012 11:30

As you say Sardine, the justice system has multiple purposes. We seem only to be focusing on one here. Do you think if he was incarcerated for 10 years he would be a better human being on his release and less likely to re-offend? Not sure I do. I agree that justice needs to be seen to be done and there needs to be an appropriate punishment - neither of which seems to be the case here. I do not agree that these ends are satisfied by the majority of suggestions on this thread.

worldgonecrazy · 04/07/2012 11:32

Wheresmycaffeinedrip you are illustrating the point I raised very well. Online porn is very different from the magazines that used to get hidden in the woods when we were younger and a lot of parents haven't realised that.

In the early days of the internet most hardcore porn sites required at least a credit card to gain access. These days, without any restrictions at all young people who use the internet can see group sex, gang bangs, rough sex, light bdsm, bukake (that's where a woman kneels down amongst a group of men whilst they wank over her face), women 'servicing' long lines of men, women being abused by several men at once, e.g. having anal, vaginal and oral sex at the same time, and all of it made to appear as if it's what normal people do all the time.

Porn has changed a huge amount over the last few years. The 'hardcore' porn of the 70s and 80s is tame by today's standards. That is why young and teenage boys and girls are growing up with twisted ideas of what is normal and healthy.

This story has gained media profile because of the young age of the girl, but sexual abuse is happening every day between young teens because of the ease with which hardcore porn is available to access.

Wheresmycaffeinedrip · 04/07/2012 11:33

I'm sure most kids by age of 14 could tell the difference between films and reality. I watched woof as a kid I never once thought my brother would turn into a dog any more than I thought there really was a world thru my wardrobe. They are told all about sex and hormones and feelings they may have during sex Ed st school and they r also taught that it's illegal until both parties are 16. He woulda known the difference between right and wrong by 14 and porn/hormones etc is not an excuse and he would know that. Judge should be ashamed !!!

ReportMeNow · 04/07/2012 11:34

The Judge's decision was mitigated, it seems, by the nature of the rape, the details of which are in the newstories linked.

Bossybritches22 · 04/07/2012 11:35

Gnocchi I agree with you about the whole "time off for good behaviour " thing.

It should be the full sentence and THEN if you have been an exemplary prisoner & learnt something from your time inside you are allowed out.

The age of the offender does not come in to it IMHO he was old enough to know right from wrong and should be punished accordingly.

Hormones BAH!! I'd cut his balls off. But then that's why I'm not a judge.

ReportMeNow · 04/07/2012 11:37

Would also be surprised if the boy/the boy's family could remain neighbours, not because of any legal restriction imposed, but with local hostility running high. Hope so for the little girl's sake anyway.

SardineQueen · 04/07/2012 11:38

Oh the "nature" of the rape.

Wasn't it "rape rape" then? FFS double FFS.

GnocchiNineDoors · 04/07/2012 11:42

Surely Rape = PIV
Sexual Assault = everything except PIV?

hackmum · 04/07/2012 11:49

I seem to remember canoe man got six years for insurance fraud. But obviously defrauding an insurance company is far worse than raping a five year old child.

Does anyone remember that the man who murdered Sarah Payne had a previous conviction for a vicious sexual assault on a young girl? He was sentenced to four years for that, served two. At the time the judge said he was passing a light sentence because the assault hadn't been premeditated. So that's OK, then.

hackmum · 04/07/2012 11:52

Gnocchi - they changed the legal definition of rape a couple of years ago, so now forced oral sex (which is what happened in this case) also counts as rape.

Wheresmycaffeinedrip · 04/07/2012 11:53

I know hackmum :( get more for shop lifting than the rape of a child it's disgusting! And where does the blame end? Steal a car let's blame Nicholas cage, dangerous driving? - it's ok after four fast and furious movies everyone's gonna be at it! I saw silence of the lambs I'm
Not eating people. :(

StewieGriffinsMom · 04/07/2012 11:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ReportMeNow · 04/07/2012 11:57

The precise details of the sexual assault looks to have been relevant in the judge's decision, that's what my post indicated. I didn't offer my own views about that but was vague with my phrasing but I didn't want to C&P the details as they are distressing but they are there for people to read if they wish.

Mmmmmmmmmm · 04/07/2012 12:00

sentencing guidelines rape

Culpability & Harm
All non-consensual offences involve the violation of the victim's sexual autonomy and will result in harm. The seriousness of the violation may depend on a number of factors, but the nature of the sexual behaviour will be the primary indicator of the degree of harm caused in the first instance.

The extreme youth or old age of a victim should be an aggravating factor. In addition, in principle, the younger the child and the greater the age gap between the offender and the victim, the higher the sentence should be. However, the youth and immaturity of the offender must also be taken into account in each case. All the non-consensual offences involve a high level of culpability on the part of the offender, since that person will have acted either deliberately without the victim's consent or without giving due consideration to whether the victim was able to or did, in fact, consent. The planning of an offence indicates a higher level of culpability than an opportunistic or impulsive offence.

Aggravating & Mitigating Factors
It should be borne in mind these lists are non-exhaustive and the factors are not linked in any particular order. Where a factor is an ingredient of an offence or is used to identify a starting point, it cannot also be an aggravating factor and care will be necessary to avoid double counting. Since sexual offences often involve some form of violence as an essential element of the offence, this is included in the starting points. However, it will be an aggravating feature if harm was inflicted over and above that necessary to commit the offence.

The guideline judgment in Millberry and others established the principle that sentencers should adopt the same starting point for 'relationship rape' or 'acquaintance rape' as for 'stranger rape'. The Council has determined that the same principle should apply to all non-consensual offences. Any rape is a traumatic and humiliating experience and, although the particular circumstances in which the rape takes place may affect the sentence imposed, the starting point for sentencing should be the same.

Aggravating:
Offender ejaculated or caused victim to ejaculate
Background of intimidation or coercion
Use of drugs, alcohol or other substance to facilitate the offence
Threats to prevent victim reporting the incident
Abduction or detention
Offender aware that he is suffering from a sexually transmitted infection
Pregnancy or infection results
Mitigating:
Victim engaged in consensual sexual activity with the offender on the same occasion and immediately before the offence
Relevant Sentencing Council Guideline (if any)
Guidelines effective for offences sentenced on or after the 14th May 2007.
The starting points are for an adult offender, of previous good character who was convicted after trial.
There is no distinction in the starting points for penetration of the vagina, anus or mouth.
Type/nature of activity: Repeated rape of same victim over a course of time or rape involving multiple victims

Starting points: 15 years custody
Sentencing ranges: 13 - 19 years custody
Type/nature of activity: Rape accompanied by any one of the following: abduction or detention; offender aware that he is suffering from a sexually transmitted infection; more than one offender acting together; abuse of trust; offence motivated by prejudice (race, religion, sexual orientation, physical disability); sustained attack

Starting points: 13 years custody if the victim is under 13
Sentencing ranges: 11 - 17 years custody
Starting points: 10 years custody if the victim is a child aged 13 or over but under 16
Sentencing ranges: 8 - 13 years custody
Starting points: 8 years custody if the victim is 16 or over
Sentencing ranges: 6 - 11 years custody
Type/nature of activity: Single offence of rape by single offender

Starting points: 10 years custody if the victim is under 13
Sentencing ranges: 8 - 13 years custody
Starting points: 8 years custody if the victim is 13 or over but under 16
Sentencing ranges: 6 - 11 years custody
Starting points: 5 years custody if the victim is 16 or over
Sentencing ranges: 4 - 8 years custody
Relevant Sentencing Case Law
R v Billam (1986) 8 Cr.App.R.(S) 48 early guidelines now replaced by the Sentencing Council Guidance. The case also offers guidance on attempted rape. The starting point for attempted rape should normally be less than the completed offence especially if it is desisted at a comparatively early stage. But attempted rape may be made by aggravating features into an offence even more serious than some examples of the full offence.

R v Millberry [2003] 2 Cr.App.R.(S) 31 Another previous guideline case. While the guidelines are replaced by those above the case is useful for its guidance on a range of different situations. It also states the courts should consider:

The degree of harm to the victim
The level of culpability of the offender
The level of risk proposed by he offender to society
While rape will always be a most serious offence, it's gravity will depend very much upon the circumstances of the particular case.

Att Gen's Ref No 6 of 2002, 2003 1 Cr App R (S) 357 Where aggravating features have to be taken into account there is no artificial limit beyond which the court cannot go in reflecting those aggravating features.

R v Corran and others [2005] 2 Cr.App.R.(S) 73 - For the rape of a child under 13 no precise guidance can be give. The appropriate sentence is likely to lie within a very wide bracket. There will be very few cases in which immediate custody is not called for, even in relation to a young offender. There will be some offences, for example where there is no question of consent and where significant aggravating features... Are present, where a long determinate sentence or a life sentence will be called for. Although absence of consent is not an ingredient of the offence, presence of consent is... material in relation to sentence particularly in relation to young defendants.

AGs Reference No. 86 of 2005 (Christopher James S.) (2006) 2 Cr App R (S) 270 Even on a guilty plea sentence should be a minimum of 5 years for rape of 3 year old niece. Defendant 23, mild learning difficulties, with only one caution for a dissimilar offence.

Masood (1997) 2 Cr App R (S) 137 and Att-Gen's Ref no 28 of 1997 2 Cr App R (S) 206. In each case the court declined to take any notice of the fact the victims were prostitutes. It seems this approach is preferred to the earlier decision of Cole 1993 14 Cr App R (S) 764.

R v W 1993 14 Cr App R (S) 256 It should not be thought a different and lower scale automatically attaches to the rape of a wife by her husband. All will depend upon the circumstances of the case. Where the parties are cohabiting and the husband insisted upon intercourse against his wife's will but without violence or threats this may reduce sentence. Where the conduct is gross and involves threats or violence the relationship will be of little significance.

R v Cadogan 2010 EWCA Crim 1642, 2011 1 Cr App R (S) 53 A sustained attack where sexual violence was used to punish, degrade and humiliate. Held it merited a severe sentence, extended sentence made up of 9 years custodial term and 3 year licence.

Ancillary Orders:
Notification (S83 to 96 Sexual Offences Act 2003)
The previous power to disqualify from working with children (S26 Criminal Justice & Court Services Act 2000) has been repealed. Under the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006 an offender convicted of rape is automatically included on 'the childrens barred list' and the 'adults barred list'. No order of the court is required.
Sexual Offences Prevention Order (S104 Sexual Offences Act 2003)
Consider Also:
Dangerous Offender provisions apply. Sentences for public protection must be considered in all cases of rape.

ReportMeNow · 04/07/2012 12:00

The judge hasn't actually said that that, btw, that's my interpretation. He's talked about porn and a misguided young manHmm but if the crime were more violent or serious in degree, could he really have imposed such a sentence? No. Which makes me think that he doesn't see this particular crime as serious.

Al0uise · 04/07/2012 12:08

Anyone else get the feeling that the judicial system is littered with rapists, paedophiles and perverts whose sole aim in life is to protect each other?

pumpkinsweetie · 04/07/2012 12:10

I get that feeling to L0ise

GnocchiNineDoors · 04/07/2012 12:13

I wonder if anyone has actually told this 14 year old that what he has done is wrong? Not that he shouldn't allready be aware of it, but in all seriousness, has anybody actually scolded him?

Mmmmmmmmmm · 04/07/2012 12:13

See Ive read those sentencing guidelines in some detail and this is the bit that confuses me, "There will be very few cases in which immediate custody is not called for, even in relation to a young offender."

So why isnt he in jail?

pumpkinsweetie · 04/07/2012 12:16

Little girls look nothing like the grown women in these porn sites mags, how can be porn be used as an excuse??!!
Im sorry i don't buy it at all, it is an excuse he has used to get off and the judge who i believe is probably 'not right' either to let him of so easily!
This 14yo in my eyes, is a peadophile as he has raped a very small child not an adult or someone near his own age.
The law in this country is an absolute disgrace and victims have to live in fear of seeing their abuser on the streets.
Im discusted at people excusing such depravity

Al0uise · 04/07/2012 12:19

The child was 5 years old, anyone who can find a 5 year old child arousing is a clear and present danger to all children and no amount of psychotherapy will alter that.

If something turns you on it will always turn you on. I find the idea of rehabiliation for offenders laughable.