The return of the O Level.

[hermionestranger]

Leaked reports suggest that the government is to scrap the GCSE from 2015, 2013 option takers will be the last year to take them.

I'm sorry it's the mail bug they were first on my twitter feed. I 'm on my phone so can't link properly.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2162369/Return-O-Level-Gove-shake-biggest-revolution-education-30-years.html

Oh, yes, I forgot, there are quite a lot of kids going out doing other stuff in some schools. That is a good start I think and maybe its good that they can try a bit of this and that, but I think what is needed is a clear and straight forward system of vocational apprenticeships that lead to qualifications that are recognised by employers in the industry and that provide young people with the knowlede and skills they need to work as a skilled person in that profession. So I think links with the industry are very important too because only they know what is needed in a particular industry.

And such an apprenticeship may also give access to certain higher education or university courses.

I am thinking of the German system.

As I have mentioned before, although it was possibly on a different O-level thread, the German system has been slated for perpetuating social inequity and there are many calls to abolish it, including by the UN.

I am not talking about the 3 tier system, that is true - I went through it, once you are in one school you are stuck there.

However, the vocational system is quite good.

How many of them would pass the 11+ without years of intensive coaching?

LeQ, surely the point is that although thousands of children are indeed talented at, for example, art, it will only be those who have access to better pencils and access to particular cultural capital who go to art college.

The education system does indeed wait until post-16 in fact to decide whether they genuinely have a 'flair' - that's why there's some attempt at a broad base for all until 16 (I'm aware that this is being eroded by the excessive use of vocational qualifications), and specialising via 'A' levels.

The issue is primarily one of opportunity and expectations, not giftedness. Otherwise, everyone who didn't go to art college would be rubbish at art and that's obviously not true.

I think of all the talents that are likely to not be encouraged, art is possibly the leader. Going to art school has traditionally been seen as something you could do if you had a trust fund but not really a practical option for someone who would need to feed themselves upon graduation. It has also been seen as something for only the obvious genius. A lot of parents would not see the potential of an art education.

I was very academic at school but had no interest in it but was privately educated and they were obsessed with traditional subjects and fairly scathing of art which I loved most. I went down the trad route and as soon as I could I pursued an artistic career with no design training and every penny I have earned has been as a result of that and not any exams I passed under duress. I really don't think you can predict anything at 14

Please don't bring back O Levels. They were the most impossibly boring exams on the planet.

Boffinmum - have you tried the French bac? DSS1 has been doing the Première exams this past fortnight and they are unbelievably dull...

I was forced to do to two CSE's, I got a grade one for both of them (equivalent to a C in O'level).

There should be high expectations for all children. As it is, they are already graded in primary school and that's largely due to whether or not their parents made them study. These levels stick with them as poor expectations while they are graded accordingly at secondary school.

Schools allow too many children to coast and rely on the ones with the good/pushy parents to get their grades for them.

I can see a lot of parents opting for the International Baccalaureate over the next few years as all the chopping and changing with GCSE/O-levels goes on, with a ripple effect on readiness for A-levels .

I have heard that the IBO is waiting for changes to A-level in the next 2/3 years, as universities start setting their own A-levels, and will then make changes to the IB to ensure the examination remains more rigorous than A-levels.

We will all need to make decisions on which exam our DC takes according to which cohort they are in and the changes being made to each exam.

It sounds from today's press that Gove got it wrong and although he is not happy with GCSEs no one really knows what will be in place for 2015.

One of my daughter's schools does the IB in addition to A levels - people choose although in her day it was just A levels. The problem is that many UK employers will just be looking for A level scores and not sure what IB means so I am not sure I would want mine to do that www.nlcs.org.uk/academic_success/IB-Diploma-results-2011.php
That is also a concern with iGCSEs some of mine will do are they comparable nd will those doing the comparing know how to compare with them with GCSEs.

I was delighted to give up all but 3 subjects in the sixth form and just concentrate on three I loved. For some of us that is better.

You underestimate employers, Xenia. I didn't do A-levels, or O-levels, and I have had any sort of problem with my school leaving exams not being understood or recognised in the UK (and there are widely used points systems for alternative exams) and I don't know anyone with the same qualifications as me who as ever encountered a problem. There is massive recognition/understanding of alternatives to A-levels in the UK - sadly, not all other countries are as open minded!

The real issue with the IB is that it is better preparation for some sorts of university courses than A-levels but less good preparation for others. If you have the luxury of the choice then you really need to think ahead to the undergraduate degree you will be applying for.

Despite LeQ being confident of being able to identify 'academic quirk' and correctly allocating to the academic or non-academic stream, it is worth remembering that statistically, even if you take the latest tests such as CATs or MIDYAS which have a correlation between attainment at 11 and at 16 of just over 0.7, if you allocated the top 25% at 11 to an 'academic' stream, roughly 1 in 5 of them will be wrongly placed, either in the academic stream instead of vocational, or the vocational stream instead of academic.

Xenia I think top employers are familiar with the IGCSE/ GCSE/ BTEC rankings. I'd imagine that as our labour market becomes more integrated with the rest of Europe all employers will have to become familiar with and more receptive to different qualifications.

As a teacher, I'm very keen to work in a school that teaches the IB. Apparently all the training courses are in Rome

As I and others have said repeated times, whether any person's innate 'flair' becomes realised through educational qualifications or career progression depends primarily on their social and economic circumstances and the aspirations and expectations that provides.

I'm not sure why that's such a hard argument to grasp. No-one is doubting the qualities you describe in your family members, but simply pointing out that the path one takes is a result of far more complex factors that what a person is good or not good at.

Whilst employers may be familiar with the IB, there are still plenty of universities that don't seem to grasp the value of it. There is an IB tariff. I can't say how many universities use it but I don't think many. I actually think it is overgenerous (and I had one ds do the IB and another do A levels so I know the difference in work required) and that they have therefore done the IB students no favours as universities ignore it and set their own requirements. They often require more from the IB students than the A level students. The argument for keeping your options open with the IB is a bad argument (not that this has come up on this thread so apologies for derailing) as if they are looking for specific A level subjects they will insist that these subjects are taken at higher level in the IB. Standard level won't be good enough. I don't mean to knock the IB but I don't necessarily think it's yet the best way forward if you are going to university in the UK.

Selective universities will always look for subjects taken at higher levels. For UK students looking at the US (a growing trend) the IB may be a better bet than A levels, as most selective universities there require students to master a core curriculum that could include subjects dropped after GCSE -- maths, lab sciences, history, art, foreign language, for instance.

This is what Harvard makes every student do:
'The new Program requires that students pass one letter-graded half-course in each of eight categories: Aesthetic and Interpretive Understanding; Culture and Belief; Empirical and Math­ematical Reasoning; Ethical Reasoning; Science of Living Systems; Science of the Physical Uni­verse; Societies of the World; and United States in the World (one of these courses must engage substantially with the study of the past).'

I agree math which is why I made sure I added "if you are going to university in the UK" at the end.

I think if the current trend of UK students looking at far flung universities continues, universities are going to have to revamp many aspects of their recruiting and fee structure in order to compete with the very professional operations and deep pockets of American universities in particular. I think that change will include less prejudice against the IB, which encounters very few raised eyebrows stateside. I also think the specialised A-levels will come a cropper to preparation for the American SAT and ACT and SAT subject tests.

NY Times article.