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The return of the O Level.

827 replies

hermionestranger · 20/06/2012 23:46

Leaked reports suggest that the government is to scrap the GCSE from 2015, 2013 option takers will be the last year to take them.

I'm sorry it's the mail bug they were first on my twitter feed. I 'm on my phone so can't link properly.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2162369/Return-O-Level-Gove-shake-biggest-revolution-education-30-years.html

OP posts:
nothingoldcanstay · 21/06/2012 22:17

morethanpotatoprints - so if you're not academic you should do childcare?? WTF !

That sums up the problem. I was a fantastic nanny mostly because I was halfway intelligent with a love of English and history as well as art and drama.

You can be clever and enjoy a real hands on job you know.

mathanxiety · 21/06/2012 22:22

ProbablyJustGas, I went to school in an 'exam is everything' system (Ireland) that is now starting to incoroprate coursework into the final grade, a godsend for students who are laid low by hay fever at exam time (start of summer) but also for students who collapse when faced with exams. My older DCs went through high school in the US as you seem to have. They worked far harder and far more consistently than I did, and for four years in a row instead of four months before the two major exams I took.

For all of its faults, the Irish system offers a solid education that is availed of by approximately 80% of teenagers.

For those of you suspicious of plagiarism and other issues -- the DCs also did AP exams, administered nationally, where the final result depended on exam performance, and SAT and ACT exams, also administered nationally, which can be repeated, but basically they measure your performance in that one exam and pay no attention to your coursework. They are standardised exams. Students at the top of the class in every subject according to their school results (grade point average) tended to do really well in the APs, the ACT and SAT, and often in the National Merit competition too.

Incidentally, the system there also allows for an element of grading on the curve, both at the individual teacher's discretion in the classroom and when the National Merit Finalist scholarships are handed out, based on results of the PSAT, taken in junior year (second last year). National Merit was actually a little unfair because grades were compared to others within your state to determine the top half of one percent who were eligible for the scholarship. A score that would get you into the top echelon in Arkansas (for instance) would leave you among the also rans in other places.

All of the questions associated with standardisation, etc., have been pretty comprehensively ironed out in the US.

morethanpotatoprints · 21/06/2012 22:25

Nothingoldcanstay
If you read my post I didn't say I agreed with this it is what it is like. My friends who studied PGCE teach childcare. Their students are taken from this group of people who are strongly encouraged to do childcare. I have 2 ds's 20 and 17 and it was/is the same at their schools and colleges.
I personally think it disgusting, my friend had 2 students last year who stuck to their guns, both were A* students but they had been disuaded by many.
Also my dd went to pre school and her key worker stated "I see you've brung your teddy". Needless to say after visiting several others with similar standards she didn't go again

TDada · 21/06/2012 22:52

great idea....I want them to have to all work hard and sweat over the actual exam as I did at school

nothingoldcanstay · 21/06/2012 23:01

morethanpotatoprints - sorry! Read your opening sentence the wrong way I think

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 21/06/2012 23:22

Probably I couldn't agree more about our fixation with grades. I'm not sure where it comes from; a lack of imagination maybe?

figroll The 11+ is completely different to GCSEs. There are x number of grammar places, so grammar schools want to fill those with x number of pupils. I know that ther's a passmark, but as I understand it it's fairly notional, as more children pass the 11+ than there are places available.

There should be no limit on the number of students attaining any one grade at GCSE, good or bad.

SineOfTheTimes · 21/06/2012 23:38

On normalisation

For subjects taken by the entire cohort of pupils (maths, English, science?), in some ways, I'd be happy to see normalised reports. It would take pressure off pupils and teachers, especially whilst people adjusted to a new exam. We would be spared the annual hand-wringing about standards rising.

What about the pupils who take Latin, or Ancient Greek, though? "AIBU to think that DS's 90% is worth more than a C grade?" Um, sorry, even though he is very well prepared and can demonstrate an excellent knowledge of the subject, he's over 35% of the way down - because most of that group is well prepared, highly motivated, and able. If you take a small group rather than the entire cohort, their abilities are NOT necessarily normally distributed and you are far more likely to get significant variance from year to year.

Teachers have become much more adept at playing the game, as have pupils - completing significant quantities of past papers, devising more and different revision activities, looking at mark schemes to see exactly now marks are awarded. After three years or so, I suspect raw marks would start going up as a result of this. The percentage needed for that A* grade would rise. Marks would once again start bunching up around the top end and either we'd start hearing that standards were going down or the exams would quietly be made harder.

Interestingly, in the States there is currently a move towards Standards Based Grading, where the pupil demonstrates mastery or proficiency of a technique. Here is one explanation of why

limitedperiodonly · 21/06/2012 23:42

I've met countless people who hanker for grammar schools but has anyone ever met anyone who said: 'I wish my child had the chance of a secondary modern education'?

Because that's the flip side of Gove's plans and that's what's going to happen.

sashh · 22/06/2012 00:51

Sorry for gate crashing but I found this when I was reading about the proposed change. I'm doing my GCSEs at the moment and thought I would put a few things straight. No one at my school has been allowed to take a single resit, all of our exams have been taken this term, 27 in total. People do not cheat in coursework as we do controlled assessments, which are essentially exams. Again in the two year course there is no time to resit these.
Me and my peers have worked so hard for two years to hopefully get good grades. This sounds so immature but how would you like it if all of your work was undermined by people saying you only achieved what you did because it was easy?

Finally, our teachers have commented that the exams we've sat have been the hardest they've seen in recent times, and believe me no one I know has come out saying 'that was easy, definitely an A for me' everyone is struggling.*

That's just my view on it, maybe my peers are just a group of thickos though and are obviously not at all 'academic'..

Well you would not have passed 'O' Level English.

You may have taken 27 exams but how many were 2.5 or 3 hours?

As SineOfTheTimes stated, with 'O' Levels you could get 90% and still get a C, or a D, of even a 'U' if your cohort was particularly good.

babymutha · 22/06/2012 01:45

can we just try and educate our children to be happy, well-informed and well-rounded members of society rather than pumping them full of bureaucratic/ academic exam nonsense just as their hormones are boiling over and pinning the rest of their adult lives to it. Jeesh..... talk about wasted opportunities. The system is failing so many of them - whether it's GCSEses or O levels it doesn't matter. What matters is young lives getting thrown away on pbtaining or not obtaining pieces of paper. It's utterly bonkers.

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 22/06/2012 07:07

Sashh how on earth do you know our GCSE student friend wouldn't pass O-Level? Her posts have been perfectly articulate, with fewer typos than those of your average 40yo MNer.

And since when was getting 90% worth a C? That certainly wouldn't be the case at degree level. Why so at GCSE?

nooka · 22/06/2012 07:37

I think that I am feeling increasingly glad that we have left the UK and my children will probably (assuming we remain here) be completing their secondary education in a system that does not include the huge emphasis on UK style exams, especially as ds has dyslexia but has been assessed as needing no extra help.

I was in the last year of O levels, and my dh was in the first year of GCSEs. We both took A levels, and to be honest after that neither of us felt our O levels mattered that much. I also did CSE French, as my school streamed the less able children to take the CSE (just in French for some reason as it was a private academically selective school). I got a grade 1 and much as I would have liked it to be equivalent to an O level pass it wasn't (NB I then took the schools normal exam and got 33%! the reason we were streamed to the CSE was that it was a year early and meant to give us confidence as it was much more about spoken French the idea was that we'd then do the O level).

I do wonder how many children now do unexpectedly badly due to problems with exams. This was certainly a significant problem for me and my peers, and is obviously something that coursework was supposed to help with. With courses I've taken as an adult assessed course work has certainly made me work a great deal harder rather than just cram it all in at the end and forget most of it a few days later!

Lilka · 22/06/2012 07:42

sashh - Does belittling students achievements make you feel big or something? You have absolutely no idea what she/he could or could not pass if they studied for it. Especially if you want to normalise the marks, so it isn't always necessary to do well to get a high grade

Sometimes exams are longer at GCSE than at A Level. I know my friends daughter takes history (A2) and they deliberately make the exam short - maybe to pressurise them and stop them waffling?? Who knows

noddyholder · 22/06/2012 08:52

Some of these attitudes are sickening totally agree about the belittling.

SineOfTheTimes · 22/06/2012 08:58

Sashh, my point was rather that in the same year little Johnny would take both Ancient Greek and Mathematics exams. He is well-prepared for both subjects and does the revision he needs to be able to tackle the past papers.

In maths, he is competing against the entire year, with a normal distribution of abilities. The raw marks are spread out with relatively few top marks and relatively few bottom marks, and a large clump in the middle. Johnny gets his A* with 90%.

But in Ancient Greek, there are only five people taking it: all able and prepared. Andrea gets 94% so gets the A*. Caitlin has 93% and gets the A, Dan's mark is 91% so he gets a B, Johnny again gets 90% and gets a C, Ermintrude receives a D for her mark of 89%.

It can be seen that compared to the rest of the country, Johnny is actually quite good at maths. Does his Greek mark of C, however, tell (a) employers (b) universities anything useful?

Ravilious · 22/06/2012 09:34

HmQueenElizabeth "The main thing I do like about this (as a Physicist) is that they're going back to studying the 3 sciences separately. However what I'd like to see us. Physics graduate teaching Physics, a Chemistry graduate teaching Chemistry and a Biology graduate teaching Biology. But I doubt they have enough teachers and resources to do this"

This is why I chose independent secondary for my dd who loves sciences.

Theas18 · 22/06/2012 09:37

Argh, just ARRRRGH!!

I have kids who wont really have any issues which ever system they sit fortunately but I just wish they'd decide.

I do feel that all this " they aren't worth the paper they are written on" lark hugely devalues the effort our kids have put in to get their GCSEs (and it also clarifies to me why Ds especially is focussed on UMS and getting full UMS not "just enough to get an A*) . Its not fair :(

gramercy · 22/06/2012 09:41

Good point, Sine.

How about no CSEs, which I agree had a bad smell attached to them. Perhaps there should be a sort of School Certificate, which demonstrates an acceptable level of maths and English. Since the school leaving age is to be raised to 17, any vocational qualifications could be taken in that year.

Clearly there needs to be some sort of solution for children who are just not academic. When there were manual/agricultural jobs, literacy and numeracy were, of course, a desirable, but did not preclude getting a decent regular paid job. Fifty or so years ago my grandfather employed 50 men on his farm. Today that farm employs no one. Even the milk man is freelance.

GSCEstudent96 · 22/06/2012 09:48

Some of the arguments about why the change should happen are not true to what actually happens with GCSEs at the moment.

There is no plagiarising as coursework is done in exam conditions - all you are allowed with you are brief notes (e.g. just a few words, no sentences). Cheating in coursework would be the same as cheating in an exam - you would get disqualified.
Also a lot of people seem to think that 50% getting As in a subject is a regular occurrence. Our science teacher explained to us that the reason for 50% getting A-A in separate sciences is because only the most able students do triple award science so it would be a class of students you would mostly expect to get As/As.
Lastly, the grade boundaries are not the same every year. They work it out based on how hard the paper is so they do more around and are converted into UMS.

TheFallenMadonna · 22/06/2012 09:48

Can I just say that all our students study three sciences separately. However, the exams for Core and Additional have biology, chemistry and physics questions in them.

GSCEstudent96 · 22/06/2012 09:51

Oh and thanks for the comment about me not being able to pass O level english, that's really helpful..

figroll · 22/06/2012 09:54

Can't stand Gove. He is just using education as a political football for his own ambition. He wants to be Prime Minister so is pandering to the Daily Mail readers of this world, who seem to be so influential for some reason. Why do you think a 'substantial' leak was made to the Daily Mail? I am sick and tired of hearing how thick our children are supposed to be. Yesterday on QT one man actually said that the majority of 16 year olds can't read - wtf??? This type of view seems quite widespread and seems to be dictating government policy, if Gove is anything to go by. Don't we have educationalists to discuss education? Why do politicians think that they are the experts in education? I am so annoyed that children's one chance at education is being used to promote the ambition of politicians like Gove.

figroll · 22/06/2012 09:56

GCSE student - you would pass O level English - I did it and it was a piece of piss. I didn't even revise.

figroll · 22/06/2012 09:58

Lol

amycreech · 22/06/2012 10:27

Personally, I am concerned that the mile is getting shorter. In 1954 only 1 person could run a mile in less than 4 minutes. Yet now it seems that every tom dick and harry can do it. There can only be one reason for this. Clearly running a mile is easier now, due to shortening. Isn't it time we returned to pre 1954 standards for our miles? When will the government tackle this serious problem?