Controlled Crying - stress levels stay high even when babies have learned to settle themselves.

[Codandchops]

OMG!!!

Even worse is that I could not bear to leave my DS as a baby so used to sit in the room and re-settle him every 5 mins. How shit is that? He could see me for 5 mins at a time not comforting him (even though after every 5 mins I did comfort him).

Have always felt an irrational guilt about DS's autism and wonder if I made things worse .

Need to read the research and look at numbers involved.

Obvs a study based on 25 babies isn't useful.

I loathe the idea of leaving babies to scream themselves to sleep. I have a poor sleeper, now a toddler and the pressure put on me to leave him to scream has been huge - from health visitors, from other mothers. Along with an often sneery put down about how I will 'spoil' him if I co-sleep, or some odd comment about how I must enjoy being a martyr if I didn't do some form of 'controlled' crying.

I hate how CC mothers often talk about their baby as if they have no emotional needs. "he's been fed, his nappy's fine, he's warm enough - there can't be anything else wrong with him.' I also hate how so much comment about behaviour is based on twaddle cod psychology. Like if a baby is cuddled when they are awake and screaming at 5 months old, they won't be able to cope with not having their every whim met as a four year old at school. Self serving twaddle.

As a cautionary tale - turns out my ds had reflux, and being laid down on his back was very painful for him, as acid digestive fluids rushed up his throat when he was in that position. we didn't realise for ages - new parents, knew no better, and it was only after realising he was actually gagging and screaming when he was put down that we put two and two together. Even with a propped up bedside cot it was an issue - one night I woke to hear him cough and choke, all of a sudden his legs were thrashing and he just wasn't breathing. I grabbed him, got him upright, and he choked and coughed and was sick everywhere. He was very badly distressed and panicky for ages afterwards.

I firmly believe if that had happened while he'd been left alone to scream, he would have choked and died. He couldn't even roll himself over at that age. Checking him twenty minutes after he'd gone quiet would have done fuck all.

"Have always felt an irrational guilt about DS's autism and wonder if I made things worse."

My mother did controll crying with both my brother and I (at 3 months old) and we're not autistic. Furthermore (and more recently), I know of at least 12 mothers who used the controlled crying technique, and their children are now 4 years+ and none of them are autistic.

I know personal anecdote count for nothing nowadays, but IMO you are beating yourself up unnecessarily. I very very much doubt you "made things worse".

((hug))

5mad that's great you dh helped. My ds1 is with diff man from dh. I know dh supports co-sleeping etc. if he didn't it would be harder. Glad you are ok now

fruitybread went cold reading your post about your ds choking. Terrifying so good you were there

Re autism. Ds2 still cosleeps (4.5) and nursed till 3.10. He was diagnosed high functioning autistic, tho presenting very much like aspergers 2/3 weeks ago.

I cannot believe it could cause autism. I did cc with both my bright dc. It didn't take long only a few days and I was never far away. Both are happy and great sleepers now. Unlike my neighbour whose dd(6) still wakes every night and demands her mother gets into her bed...mind you they were spotted last night wheeling her in a buggy , but that's another story...

Hasn't anyone read the Gerhardt and Sunderland books which draw upon a HUGE body of research from neuroscience. Definitely worth reading if you're sceptical about the effects of cortisol.

www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Love-Matters-Affection-Shapes/dp/1583918175

www.amazon.co.uk/What-Every-Parent-Needs-Know/dp/1405320362

thenewshmoo i said about hte 'why love matters' book earlier in the thread, its a great read, very interesting and backed up my gut feeling that cc was something i just cant do.

chippychop @ "bright children" comment. Not sure how that relates to ASD.

btw i dont think cc will cause autism at all, but i do think that prolonged periods of crying for small baby, particularly under one yr is not good, as the book quoted above explains there isa huge amoutn of development of hte brain and nervous system and that can be affected by prolonged crying. ulitmately my instinct as a parent was that i couldnt do it and i went with that but the neuroscience research is def showing some interesting links between cc/cio etc and problems with dealing with stress/anxiety etc as an adult.

My son is 5 months old and refused to nap for the entire day a week or so ago and he was exhausted! The day after the day from hell I decided he would be having a nap after lunchtime no matter what, so it took 15 minutes with me picking him up twice to stop him crying and put him straight back in his cot when he had stopped crying. He then slept for an hour and a half. I did this two days running. I guess this is controlled crying?

Whatever it's called it worked for me and my son and he now has daytime naps which he needs. I think for a grand total of 25 minutes crying for two days (less than 15 minutes each day as I picked him up to calm him down and stop him from crying), the pros outweigh the cons. IMHO the lack of sleep for my son was affecting him far more than a little bit of crying.

Now as soon as I see my son getting tired, I put him straight into his cot a nap and he does drop off nicely on his own, I go back in and check him after 5 minutes. I do find putting him down for a nap before he gets overtired is the key.

Also, another thing that I wonder about this debate...what if I'm bursting for the toilet and DS is crying? Do I try to hold it in, or do I go to the toilet and let him cry for a few minutes? Obviously I will go to the toilet before I have an accident, but what's the difference between this and controlled crying? Sometimes babies do have to cry for a few minutes. It's not nice and as a mum it pulls on your heart strings, but with the best will in the world babies will cry sometimes.

I wish that people could be nicer to one another as everyone wants to do their best for their child, but it is a simple fact that all babies are different and what works for one doesn't work for another.

If anyone is interested in serious science about the developing brain, check out this.

What it will tell you is that there is an AWFUL lot we don't know about the brain or how it develops or what impacts on it, and that the interplay between genetics and experience is extremely complex and unpredictable.

These books with "heaps of neuroscienctific research" to back up some sort of One True Message about parenting or education or some such really bring out my sceptical side. The truth is practically EVERYTHING has the power to impact upon the developing brain and nervous system and in highly unpredictable ways. There will be children deeply affected by new or unpleasant experiences and children for whom the same experience is like water off a duck's back. One child left to cry for 10 minutes on one occasion because their mother, oh, I don't know, had an epileptic fit or fell down a well may be more affected by the experience than another child who was left to cry every day for months on purpose [shocked]. Some chidlren of women with PND go on to have serious developmental sequelae, others are perfectly well attached by a year old, even where the course of illness has been identical for both women. And so on. It's actually pretty tough to prove that anything experiential conclusively impacts in any particular way on any cohort of children and even in areas where there is high levels of research e.g. autism, you will find serious bodies like NICE having to return "insufficient evidence to reach a conclusion" about pretty much everything because individual difference in this can be quite extreme. So much of it is probability.

From my point of view, I am far more convinced by the literature on the effects of prolonged untreated maternal mental ill health on child development (although I am very aware that this isn't conclusive either) than I am by the idea that 5,10 even 15 minutes of crying a few times of day carried out by loving parents with the best of intentions really is going to make a long-term difference to adult emotional or physical health, bonding or attachment. It just doesn't make sense to me that in a 24 hour period where a child is literally making neural connections 24-7 that 15-45 minutes is going to make such an overwhelming difference, particularly where this is happening, what, for three days every six weeks or so. It seems like cod science.

mamamaisaura I meant bright as in happy

chippychop my ds2 is above average intelligence, very happy, great sleeper. Cosleeps, sleeps well, if he wanted to sit in a pushchair he could, he's 4.5 and high functioning autistic. Not sure what your post was trying to say tbh . As for your neighbour.. None of your business really is it?

the book that i recomended isnt espousing any parenting method, its purely about brain and nerbous sytem development and about relationships and impacts on a baby and its development, there is nothing about how to parent in it tbh.

Why love matters has a very AP bent imo...

Thing is love does matter, of course it does. I have done placements in child psych and some of the backgrounds these kids come from are appaling and the kids are damaged irrevocably. But this is from long term severe neglect and emotional abuse that good parents like us cannot even comprehend. I have never once heard or seen of a kid having an insecure attachment from a bit of controlled crying alone, where in the rest of their waking lives they are loved, shown affection, listened to, validated, stimulated and cherished. It is like saying a toddler will be damaged from having a tantrum because they can't get exactly what they want.

And fwiw, there is also evidence that a small amount of adversity actually develops emotional resilience. I am not saying that anyone should inflict adversity on a child on purpose, but if it is the last resort a small amount of stress is unlikely to cause that much lasting damage on a background of loving and string relationships within the family.

Leaving them to cry while you go to the toilet is not going to be harmful!
In the grand scheme of things cc is not damaging if they are secure, loved etc and it won't cause autism. I just didn't want mine to feel that their needs would not be met so there was no point in trying. I suppose it is the difference between 'the glass being half full or half empty' and I wanted mine to be optimistic.
I agree that there is great deal that we don't know about the brain.

Thank you mashedavocado and also to everyone else who has given me very un-mumsnetty hugs.

Yes you are right, as parents we can always find something to feel guilty about. I know I did not cause my son's autism because he is a carbon copy of me as a child (almost). I have autistic traits and may even be an undiagnosed Aspergers.

I can be a bit irrational at times though and stupid studies like this one which was based on just 25 children ( why did it even merit news time) can send me into irrational mode. Thankfully it does not last for long.

InterviewMAD - couldn't agree more. Also read 'Why Love Matters' and think it has an agenda. It makes scant distinction between wanton neglect and leaving a child to cry for a few minutes.

I haven't read the whole thread, sorry no time but I have a genuine question:
What happens if your DC cries a lot because of colic, or like mine (2 and a bit weeks) for no apparent reason?
Because surely, all crying generates stress or is generated by stress or a stressful situation, right? Otherwise you would not cry, would you?
So why focus ONLY on CC and bang on about cortisol levels, when surely they must be just as high when children cry for other reasons IYSWIM. And in those cases, there is not a fat lot you can do about it.
Equally when a toddler throws a tantrum because he/she wants something you can't/won't give them, are you (whoever "you" is, not directed at anyone) going to given because you are worried about cortisol levels and their potential effects on the brain?
It is never pleasant to let a child cry but it is sometimes necessary.

I don't have any issue with leaving babies crying for a short while - you would leave a baby happy, it's only another emotion. As I see it, many comment that babies don't like to be left crying but then if they don't like it, they learn to deal with something they don't like and overcome it by learning to stop! It is also a control thing by the baby, they realise that mummy/daddy will keep picking them up if they cry - they have learnt that behaviour already and so carry it on into bedtime. They need to unlearn that behaviour and learn that they can not control the parent with their crying which is basically what they are doing as it stops the minute they are picked up/cuddled/talked to/rocked etc so some are not distraught, they are demanding attention. They are far cleverer than we give them credit for!

DialM - yes you are right and all children cry. There is a massive difference between neglect and leaving a child to cry for short periods knowing that you will return and be as lovig and attentive as ever.

Ladymuckbeth (fab name btw) and InterviewMAD, I read "Why Love Matters" too but for me that was more about work as I used to work as a HV. For me that book was about arming myself with enough information to support young parents who might have had little parenting themselves. It was about saying not only is it okay to cuddle your baby but it is positively encouraged that you do so, and talk to them and engage with them.
It was not (in my eyes anyway) a book for beating up parents who do all those things instinctively but need to employ CC to help cope with sleep issues.

DialM - just re-read your post and seen that your little one is 2 and a bit weeks. Congratulations on the birth of your baby xx

I think as far as CC goes it's not recommended before 6 months but colic is hideous and my DS really struggled with it too so you have my sympathy.