Controlled Crying - stress levels stay high even when babies have learned to settle themselves.

[Codandchops]

OMG!!!

Even worse is that I could not bear to leave my DS as a baby so used to sit in the room and re-settle him every 5 mins. How shit is that? He could see me for 5 mins at a time not comforting him (even though after every 5 mins I did comfort him).

Have always felt an irrational guilt about DS's autism and wonder if I made things worse .

Need to read the research and look at numbers involved.

slipslider of course it's a control thing. That is entirely what it is and is needed so babies needs are met as they aren't yet able to meet their own. I sometimes despair of this whole "it's wrong to tend to babies needs as they need to learn who is boss". No they need to feel safe and secure.

And attention is a basic need. Rhesus monkey experiment highlighted how comfort was a huge need.

Jesus wept, slipslider!

Your post is wrong in so many ways I don't know where to start. And I am sure many cc people will agree with me!

Thank you!
I know about the 6 months recommendation. At the mo, with DS2 we are doing uncontrolled crying.... not out of choice let m tell you! I hate the fact that books say "if your LO cries, he is either hungry, uncomfortable, hot/cold bored, sitting in a dirty nappy, whatever" why don't they say: sometimes they cry, we don't really know why, no a great deal you can do about it, you are not a shit parent and it WILL pass.
Sorry for digression.

Oh, DialM- yes it will pass, but it's shit while it lasts!

I presume you've tried a sling? Sorry if I'm teaching my G to suck Es.

Got the sling yesterday! Made things better.

Interesting quotation from John Wesley here. I often suspect that the way UK society feels about babies has a subliminal element of this mindset.

"Break their will betimes. Begin this work before they can run alone, before they can speak plain, perhaps before they can speak at all. Whatever pains it costs, break the will if you would not damn the child. Let a child from a year old be taught to fear the rod and to cry softly; from that age make him do as he is bid, if you whip him ten times running to effect it... Break his will now, and his soul shall live, and he will probably bless you to all eternity."

DialM- if you haven't used slings before- be prepared to try different ones. Or the one you've got in different ways. One of mine hated facing in- the other hated facing out!

That doesn't sound like a modern quote seeker, who is John Wesley? I doubt many modern parents have that viewpoint. I did not do cc to break the will of my child. I did it because she seemed to sleep better and quicker by crying down for a few minutes than by us rocking her for hours on end (still crying). She is 16 months now and she is very wilful trust me! And a very happy interactive lovely and secure child.

real I think seekers Wesley post was aimed at slipsider

dail what sling did you go for. Ivexgot a closer one altho my baby is getting quite the fattie as thinking traditional ringsling. (she's 7 months). Re crying.. I remember dd crying and crying and crying and me joining in. I think it was colic and she still cries for every single poo.

No, it's not a modern quote- John Wesley was a very influential religious leader in the 18th century.

My point was that many of us still have in the back of our minds that children should be doing this or that- and that there is an element of it being wrong that they don't. The are often posts, for example, about when children should give up sleeping with their teddies. Sayings like "a rod for yournown back" and "don't let them win" and things like that are part of this mindset. And I think for many people sleeping through is one of those "oughts". It's something people ask you about as if it's a sort of milestone "is she sleeping through?" and hif she isn't, it's very easy to think that you are doing something wrong- or even worse, doing something that's wrong for the baby. And then we spend enormous amounts of physical and emotional energy trying to make something happen that in 99% of cases would have just happened anyway if we only waited a week or two.

Wow seeker, I'd never seen that Wesley quote before. Have always thought he must have been a nice man, given the good work the Methodists have done (family friends were a Methodist minister and lay preacher when I was a child).

Funny how religious zealots ignore the parts of the gospels where Jesus spoke about children. He was very clear about damning people who harmed children.

Everything you say in your second paragraph I've heard from my mum Seeker and continued to ignore. I am glad things are moving forward. I only co slept with mine when they were poorly though, but the way I parent is almost the polar opposite of my mother.

John Wesley lived in the 1700's. I for one am glad things have moved on. That way of thinking went on long before John Wesley as far as I'm aware? Also didn't Blackstone approve a law in the 1700's which meant that husband and wife were one person and that the husband was that person. In other words, Blackstone approved a law that meant that a wife had no right to own property in her own name and that the wages she earned belonged to her husband? There were a lot of things wrong back then, in the 1700's. I like to think we are moving away from that slowly and inexorably.

For instance I was regularly smacked in the supermarket, in the High Street etc. Everything was 1,2,3 wallop and no one batted an eye lid when I was a child. I am so so thankful that these days we seem to be moving away from that method of discipline. I am going off topic though and derailing the thread. Just thinking and typing

Edam Proverbs has several verses about disciplining with the rod that people have picked up on. It was written in about 900 BC. Dr James Dobson a very recent author advocates smacking in his book amongst other things I think with a book like the bible anyone can pluck out verses to justify their thinking, as well as to suit whatever is in vogue at the time. The Strong willed child book was written at a time when most parents smacked However I have Christian books now that recommend the total opposite, thank goodness.

Hmmmm I am not articulate enough. Or intelligent enough. Not sure I am making much sense here or getting across what I'm trying to very well

Cod yes, you're right. I work in a similar role (training CMs and early years educators) and I would say the same thing. I have seen the effects of poor attachment.. I just don't believe it's caused by a normal, loving family doing a bit of cc. I find some of the extrapolations in "Why Love Matters" a bit OTT and value laden though I wholeheartedly believe that love does matter and makes all the difference to what sort of person a child can become. There's the story of Dennis Potter, for example.

There's the idea that his stress responses were impacted on by his father being ill and his mother having to care for him in his infancy and a fairly shocking assumption that when he was sexually abused in later childhood he "chose" not to tell his mother because of some attachment issues. Pure conjecture, to start with.. but also, very many children who are sexually abused love and are attached to their parents and that very love and attachment is used to buy their silence . And Dennis Potter had some terrible sadness, and depression and addiction and these are all terrible.. but he was also a great artist and I am sure had relationships and experiences that were very important to him and to those people.. because life isn't a potted summary, it is a rich tapestry, and you can be fucked up and brilliant and happy and sad and your life is still worthwhile and important and worthy.

The thing that concerns me about this sort of debate is the idea that humanity is somehow perfectible.. that if we did parenting "right" etc and could somehow regulate cortisol to the "perfect" level that the world would have no evil, or pain or stress. I know in "love matters" there's a line where they say that not everyone who loses someone or is bereaved becomes depressed and often it's those who are "prone" to doing so, but tell that to someone whose entire family is wiped out in a housefire or who loses their child. All grief is not the same, all experiences are not the same and there are genetic differences that mediate our responses as well as what happens from "attachment" (as important as it is). And some people who are prone to depression have other amazing qualities... it is not a black and white picture.

I had a terrible childhood. Mum had severe PND and other mental health issues, father is a severe alcoholic, had all sorts of traumas.. and yet I am a happy, successful person with a beautiful family and a great job and immense gratitude. True, I also have an anxiety disorder but hey, I don't blame my folks for that. They were products of their background, too. And all of it makes me who I am, makes them who they are and some of it I will no doubt pass on, whether I AP or CC or whatever. Parenting is SO profound - that Chasing Cars line always reminds me of it... "All that I am, all that I ever was is there in your perfect eyes, they're all I can see"... it's HUGE. And we will all fuck it up in one way or the other. Going the whole AP route or doing a bit of CC.. either of them as "paths" won't be enough to cocoon any of our children from our own neuroses and flaws, yet nor will our "mistakes" mean that our children are irreparably damaged because of our actions.

We are all human. Thankfully, most of us are doing our best. If you can do your best as a human, that is all you can really ask for in this life.

A moby wrap one. Got a nice sweat patch on me Tshirt now faces inwards.
DS2 likes it but gets too hot at times.

I appreciate the feedback but this whole child centred approach and giving them what they need when they need it, instant gratification etc creates a whole new ball game with children and alongside this many problems. Yes attention is a basic need but so is eating and you wouldn't keep giving a child food because they kept asking for it. Maybe children who don't feel safe and secure when left alone is because they haven't had the opportunity to experience it much and there is no reason for it to be a bad thing if children can enjoy their own company for half an hour or so! Those who are left for short times on their own can develop other skills. Just imagine when they are older and have no concept that they have to wait to get someones attention and 30 children talk at once to one person (school etc) or that there are times when it is not appropriate (church/interrupting adults etc) and they can not handle it or know how to wait because they never have had to.

I've worked with children for 15 years/studied them for 8 of these to masters level and this year in a new role has opened my eyes completely and changed a lot of what I thought...which brings me to this conclusion! You each have your own valid point but appalled to be portrayed in aforementioned comments that I would neglect a child or try an break their spirit because I feel they can be left alone to sleep??

Slipslider. I have 12 years hands on experience (ds1 is 12 ) and I don't agree with you. Fwiw he's classed an Excellant student and a polite and pleasant boy who is very considerate of others. Now not for one second would I put that down to just my parenting as I think it's due to his life experience and genetics. However the idea that responding to a baby needing attention "spoils" them is a croc of shite IMHO. As qualifications have their place but nothing beats hands on parenting and experience. Oh a if we are pulling out qualifications to strengthen points of view I a a graduate and trained nurse. Irrellevant to this tho IMO . I really hope youdon't work with my dc

I've got a variety of ancient (1914 -1925) childcare manuals - there is some right scary stuff in em let me tell you.

"At night tuck your child in tight with hands outside the covers so they cannot touch themselves beneath the sheets. When they get older they can be taught that this kind of behaviour will make them ill"

Shocking stuff.

Slipslider - do you have any children of your own?
Just asking because I had a similarly hardline attitude to yours before I had DS. Then changed immediately. Plus I couldn't leave him to cry because he had a hernia and risked strangulating it if left to cry prior to his operation to correct it - but I found it far easier and more beneficial to pick him up when he cried because he then stopped - there is no point in trying to "discipline" a baby that young. It's easy enough to start disciplining them in other ways when they're older and don't feel like a major part of them has fallen off and disappeared.

I don't think that child centred care IS about instant gratification though is it?

It's about seeing a child's needs are met un a timely manner and in an appropriate way. Most children are not picked up the minute they squawk for it if the parent is in the middle of something else. And if the child has other siblings then a baby might have to wait even longer.

I tried CC - it didn't work with DS but with hindsight I can see the sensory seeking behaviours were evident from his earliest days. So while he was not picked up at first squawk, neither was he left for long periods because he would get very very distressed.

dear god, i mention leaving a baby a while and then it gets turned into that we should not respond to them at all and i'm the harshest cow living! People take one comment right to the extreme on here! A rational debate turns into slander! I mentioned the qualifications as I know ppl were pulling quotes on me as if I didn't have a clue about children?? You are true nothing does beat hands on experience/parenting of which I have plenty also! It's not about discipline, its about letting them enjoy being on their own, if they enjoy it then bedtimes are not a big deal. Mama, I am sure I don't work with your child but if I did I would be polite to you non the less, not rude and suggest that I am not any good at my job!

You each have your own valid point but appalled to be portrayed in aforementioned comments that I would neglect a child or try an break their spirit because I feel they can be left alone to sleep??"

Well, you did post this sentence " As I see it, many comment that babies don't like to be left crying but then if they don't like it, they learn to deal with something they don't like and overcome it by learning to stop!". Which, if I don't misunderstand you, is saying that if a baby doesn't like being left to cry, they have to learn to stop crying. Which means that the baby has to learn that it's needs will not be met so it might as well stop crying because nobody will come.

Can't see how a child crying it's heart out is enjoying being on its own...

Lol slander really? slip you said that a child not left would interrupt adults (how absolutely awful ) and never wait their turn. That's very sweeping and incorrect However the whole tone of your post was IMO, children should know their place. Now if you happen to think me disagreeing and hoping someone with values such as this, was not working with my dc, then please report me.