Child guru says nurseries harm small children

[flashingnose]

oh dear

I thought we were talking about QofQ's sex life?

I know expat, thats what I am saying. Where I live in the southeast it is so expensive most women I know have to work (we are very close to it and only just get by). I wouldnt feel guilty if I had to work and ds went into childcare. In todays society with inflated prices you do what you have to do.

Did we ever get back to the original point of the thread?

Don't you think though, that by the time you add up cost of childcare, extra car to get you to work, and other stuff that is work-related, like maybe eating out or buying quick meals to save time, it might almost add up to the extra salary?

Don't you think though, that by the time you add up cost of childcare, extra car to get you to work, and other stuff that is work-related, like maybe eating out or buying quick meals to save time, it might almost add up to the extra salary?

I don't think, beartime, because my husband has told me not to worry my pretty little head with costs of childcare, and adding up just makes my head spin even worse than it is spinning already. I defer to his leadership in this, as in all things. I will ask him and report back.

no beartime, not for example if the woman is earning £100k pa. as some women do, strangely enough, despite being the weaker sex and unable to make decisions in their own household.

I work 10 hours a week and I'll be able to cover DD's nursery costs for 3 days a week when she starts in March. I get my PhD done meanwhile, my pension contributions, up-to-date with my field, a better job in the future (hopefully).

Beartime, don't you need a car even if you don't work unless of course you live in the heart of London where you mwouldn't need a car if you did work.

You do seem to have assumed that all women have low-paid jobs. Did you know that women can go to Uni now. And they vote. Oh, and they can make decisions too.

Seriously, someone reassure me that Christianity is not as sexist as Bertime says. This thread has me questioning my beliefs. Surely I'm not the only Christian who doesn't think these scripture quotes should be so literally applied to modern day.

dp and i could rearrange the work we do to ensure we needed no childcare at all. by doing lots of evening and weekend work and "shift parenting". i think it would be a highly stressful thing to do, not very efficient for producing good quality work, we'd be far more often doing "one parent with 3 small children" things rather than the more relaxed (i.e. bearable) two parent ratio to 3 children. we'd have less time together. it really doesn't seem a great idea, instead of using some external childcare (which my children seem to actually enjoy anyway, most of the time).

i think "shift parenting" is related to quite a high level of relationship breakdown, which can't be ideal for children really.

am not mega-paid, am an academic, but still it is financially far more profitable to work and pay childcare than to not work.

Okay, I've taken the religeous debate here .

I believe there was a study recently that stated shift working parents made it more unstable in a family. I think it was the Rowntree Foundation. Let's face it though, you just can't win so do what suits your family best that is what I say!

Everyone just pick the study they like and use it to remind yourself why your choices are right for you.

Seriously, when they can produce studies that consistently draw the same conclusion it might be worth listening to them. Until then, my word is just as good (probably better) than theirs.

Why don't we do a study on how slamming kids into nursery and working causes few problems. Looks like we have a big enough pool here on MN and I would guess some really academic types who could write it up.

This one is still bugging me guess it's cos I'm going back to work in April.

Uwila - hello again. Late reassurance from me on the Christian front. I know there's an evangelical school of thought that doesn't consider woolly liberal Anglicans to be Christians but I think of myself as one......and I love work, love dh and love the los - and the nursery and childminder who look after them while I pursue my own selfish ends.
I think it's fine to defer to your husband's leadership as long as he defers to yours just as often. I'm interested how people choose what biblical rules to live by, if we lived by them all it'd be hats in church, and no cotton next to your skin on a Tuesday etc
Beartime - how did you decide which bits of the bible to leave out?
I decided to only take the bits I thought would make me a better person and the people around me happier and the world I live in now, hopefully, eventually, improved into a more peaceful place.
I think God intended humans to be fully capable of that.

I'm reminding myself that biddulph was talking about people who 'slam' their kids into full time nursery every day as very young babies, which is a very small percentage. I do have a difficulty in believing this is not going to damage the emotional development of babies and very young children under three - human beings thrive best in family set ups with a care giving figure they can attach themselves to. I wonder how this largely institutional type of upbringing (and I mean 8am - 6pm, mon - fri, for say, a 12 week old baby up till they are three) will affect this generation of babies - none of us can know this and I think we'll have to just wait for future years before we can really judge on the subject.

Just wondering... I didn't know how much childcare etc. cost. And yes I know women can go to uni - I did. And you have a good point about the car.

Welshmum I'm trying not to leave any bits of the Bible out!

OK and just to show its not just me, cos I know you all think I'm weird here's a quote from John Macarthur's book on parenting (a well-known evangelical preacher from America)
'Mothers in particular pay a high price when they leave the home to pursue a career. Not only do they step out of the role God has designed for wives, but they often must also abandon their most crucial role as the primary caregiver to their own children. I believe one of the worst errors a mother can make is to sacrifice time with her own children for the sake of pursuing a career...
When a mother relinquishes God's order, the whole family feels the result. God's design for the woman is to be in the home - to be submissive to her own husband, to be caring for her own children, and to be tending the needs of her own home. Mothers who want to be successful parents cannot forsake those tasks and expect the Lord's blessing in their parenting. Being a mother is not a part-time task. It cannot be treated as a sideline. The mum, even more than the dad, must be devoted to parenting full-time. the home is her domain.
Some protest that this makes the woman a second-class citizen, removed from the workforce, cut off from any influence, unable to make her mark in the world. But Scripture says the opposite. A woman's greatest influence is manifest through her children. She is the one who influences them more than any other, including the father, because of her constant presence in the home. She is rescued from any second-class status by this lofty role.

beartime, have a look at the link uwila provided, the discussion about whether women should become bishops - historically women have played a much more significant role in the church than this, ahem, expert in parenting John Macarthur.

Ok Beartime, now THAT was definitely written by man!

Anything to add on to the guilt/angst we already feel. Shit.

Guess I will just have to do without the Lord's blessing, then, and be an unsuccessful parent.Ah well.

Funny, I didn't feel particularly lofty when I was a SAHM, bored out of my wits, and taking it out on my kids. But I am sure Mr McArthur knows best.

i wonder what Hildegard Bingen would have to say about John MacArthur...

See.. every 6 weeks or so they run out of news...it's my theory.. and run this sort of article. Next weeks they'll be telling us how 3/4 year olds actually benefit from the nursery environment. Fed up with reading any of this pup TBH

By the way, he doesn't say categorically women shouldn't work outside the home, cos the Bible doesn't say so. It's a case of priorities. And I also have women authors who say the same thing, but I won't bore you

fennel

was thinking of changing my name for this one, but have decided not to.

my parents were determined not to put me and my sibs in childcare even though they both worked. in order to accomplish this, my mother worked nights and weekends (as recommended here).

without going into the details, i would say i had a pretty miserable childhood in many ways - and i think the family working arrangements were the main cause of that.

in addition, the effect on my parents' relationship was terminal - they limped on for the sake of the kids until i was 21 (brother and sister were younger).

so fennel, i completely agree - based on personal experience - with your assessment of the situation when the parents take that option.

another thing - i see on this thread a whiff of the "it's only until they go to school" philosophy. again from personal experience, wohm is much, much harder when kids reach school age. therefore, whatever arrangements you may have in place to allow sah now, or whatever aspirations you may have to change the arrangements once the kids are at school - don't assume that they will stand up against the culture clash that is school v. work life.

just my 2c.

and may i say how utterly dull this thread has become since it descended into a discussion about what the bible says about how submissive women should be. i mean dull in the sense that the quality of debate has been impoverished. and i say that as a churchgoer.