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Original poster

2 1/2 year old and 18 mth old die in a fire...

79 replies

MrsWood · 01/02/2006 10:33

...whilst parents ignored their screams due to having a romantic evening together... WTF?!
Just read this in The Mirror. Apaprently, the boys were terrors, and parents changed the door handle to be turned upwards to get out so they couldn't do it. 2 1/2 y.o. lit 11 matches near his brother's cot... parents thought they were playing up and refused to go and see them. They had 80% burns and died few weeks later.
Terrible tragedy.

OP posts:
monkeytrousers · 03/02/2006 13:58

This is just too horrible to keep contemplating but for what it's worth I wasn't advocating 'Greens patent rope trick' as it's called in New Toddler Taming (p159) but just saying they might have read it or someone advised them after reading it themselves.

They don't advocate leaving them indefinitely but does say, "One late evening it had become quite apparent that there was no way our active superboy's were going to stay in their room, so a loop of rope was attached in the approved manner, Following this, there was a bit of gentle crying which then dramatically increased in decibels. my wife and I knew we had to wait 5 minutes before we came and comforted but when we eventually arrived we got a nasty shock. The boys were still in their room but unfortunately I had made the rope a fraction too long and the older boy had skillfully pushed his younger brothers head into the crack in the door, where it was firmly jammed."

Is this an admission of neglect then or good advice? I found it a bit alarming to say the least and it's not something I'm going to try.

And forced sterilization of those with disabilities and learning difficulties ,well it may surprise a lot of you to know that this has only relatively recently stopped being a policy, certainly this century. And as a consequence many people to whom family life was denied have had children and been fabulous parents.

It's worth remembering idiots come with high IQ's and publish books aswell.

kittyfish · 03/02/2006 14:52

In the States, poss in NY only, there is a system of voluntary sterilisation for drug addict mothers. I think some Christian charity gives these women $50 or something and pays for the sterilisation.

I agree about the slippery slope and that it sets a very dangerous precedent. However, how would you all feel if Webster and French have a family when they get out of prison? I think for people who a wilfully or neglectfully cruel to children in any way and convicted of such, sterilisation should be an option. Never will be though. Can't see any govt bringing that sort of legislation in.

kittyfish · 03/02/2006 14:53

By the way Monkeytrousers, don't think these two have the IQ to even know what a parenting book is...

NotQuiteCockney · 03/02/2006 14:55

Having sterilisation offered, perhaps even with some incentives for it, isn't the same thing as forced sterilisation.

And if these two had kids again, I'd like to think SS would be all over them from day one ... am I too optimistic? Probably.

HappyMumof2 · 03/02/2006 14:59

Message withdrawn

kittyfish · 03/02/2006 15:03

The worst of it is she will be targeted by paedophiles. I can't bear to think about it.

kittyfish · 03/02/2006 15:05

Also how voluntary is it to offer a drug addict $50 to be sterilised when most addicts would sell their mother (or child) for their next fix?

whimsy · 03/02/2006 17:36

They do have a little girl NotQuiteCockney, hopefully she is in care now.

Elf1981 · 03/02/2006 20:46

I dont think that Webster and French are going to last long when they get out. Their picturs have been splashed over every paper, loads of web pages, news reports etc. The public know what they look like.

Remember the two flights that crashed mid air with the russian school children on it, well the air traffic controller on duty when the planes crashed moved country, he was tracked down and stabbed in his own home.

How many people are willing going to let Webster and French live next door to them?

HappyMumof2 · 03/02/2006 21:11

Message withdrawn

winnie · 03/02/2006 21:30

This is just so tragic

As for sterilisation. Others have said it better than I can. But who would make the judgements and where would it end?

My Grandmother was an unmarried mother with 5 children at a time when many women in her situation were locked in asylums. many people probably thought and perhaps think she shouldn't have been able to go on and have more children...
it is all so subjective and frankly unhelpful.

monkeytrousers · 04/02/2006 09:04

I can't believe what some people are advocating on here. The air traffic controller was attacked by a parent and what happened to him was another tragedy. He wasn't a criminal or murderer just an overworked stressed out human being who was struggling with what had happened just as the families and friends of those on the planes were.

These people didn't set fire to their kids themselves. As I've said, there is a bestselling book advocating locking your kids in the bedrooms and waiting 5 minutes however much they are screaming. 5 minutes is long enough for this tragedy to have happened. None of us know the reality of what happened and what they have to live with. But all this talk of sterilisation and vigilantism is just insanity, really horrible evil premeditated madness.

Prisoners are fed at the taxpayers expense - all kinds of people who have done far worse than Maxine Carr? Is that out of order too? Would executing them at the taxpayers expense be preferable? I'm not getting on my high horse, I just get really bewildered and bloody scared when I hear people so casually calling for blood. Thank god for law and order.

HappyMumof2 · 04/02/2006 09:19

Message withdrawn

monkeytrousers · 04/02/2006 09:25

I think thankfully it's not my decision to make and we have perfectly capable laws and juditary to make them for us. It's a horrific thing to happen, but we don't know all the details and calling for blanket sterilisation of dim people isn't going to stop it happening again unfortunately - horrible things happen to clever people too.

Elf1981 · 04/02/2006 09:36

monkeytrousers - I am not saying that we should all grab our pitchforks and go kill Webster and French, or that the murdered air traffic controller was a bad person or responsible of murder. What I was trying to say (probably not very elequontly) was that grief and anger can do a lot to people. The father who killed the air traffic controller had lost his whole family on the flight, he tracked the air traffic controller down and murdered him becuase that was how far he'd been pushed by his grief and anger.
Imagine if French and Webster moved back into the community where they'd hurt that little girl (pratically impossible but imagine). I can easily imagine a famliy member being so angry about their lenient sentence that they attack them.
Also, we live in a society where we read these terrible things and think "that could have been me, that could happen to my child" and we place people under suspicion. If French or Webster moved next door to you when they were released from prision, would you be comfortable? Would you let your kids play outside? Would it bother you if they were on their way home from work, saw your kids playing in the street and said hello? Would you try to sell / ask to be rehoused? What if you couldn't sell becuase buyers saw who your neighbour was? All I was trying to say was that there are not many people who operate on a forgive and forget, or even just a forget policy. If you are one of these people, you certainly are better than I am. I'm not saying that prisions should be killed when they are relased, I'm just saying that the majority of communities would do their uptmost to make sure that they didn't live there, that they moved. Hasn't there been news reports recently that a family of somebody who has been convicted have had to be rehoused as the community have tormented them?
My post also wasn't related to the story about the two boys, it was in response to other posts about Webster and French.
If you look at my earlier posts, I'm against the suggestion of steralization of "low IQ" people.
Sorry if I offended you with my post.

HappyMumof2 · 04/02/2006 09:40

Message withdrawn

HappyMumof2 · 04/02/2006 09:42

Message withdrawn

monkeytrousers · 04/02/2006 10:23

Elf I;m not offended no need to apologise just a bit alarmed.

muma3 · 04/02/2006 10:47

i too happen to live near these people and think that it is awful that they didnt go to see them when they were crying . i wouldnt risk leaving a crying child wheter they were naughty or not as they have found out there will be one time when there crys are genuine

mykidsmum · 04/02/2006 17:16

Update in the local news today, The mum is supposed to be in the bottom 2% in the country in terms of IQ, she is classed as having a learning disability. She was not aware that her son had matches although she kept them in the house she doesn't know how he obtained them.
Personally I don't believ murder comes into it, she didn't intend for her son to die, her actions are extremely questionable as a parent, but their deaths were not pre meditated. In todays news it also said that on several occasions she had asked for help with her children to no avail. Her sons were incredibly challenging and she couldn't cope, now come on how many of us know how that feels, now imagine being of incredibly low intellect and simply not knowing how to deal with discipline etc. This is incredibly sad for all involved not least the parents, they have lost their sons, low intellect or not they still must be heartbroken.

monkeytrousers · 04/02/2006 19:54

It's cases like this that make me really wish I believed in a God - someone to love and care for them in another life..

HappyMumof2 · 23/03/2006 07:27

did anyone see the sentances given to these parents - I think it was 3 years for him and 2 yrs for her - pathetic Angry

jellyjelly · 23/03/2006 12:01

Who are webster and french?

HappyMumof2 · 23/03/2006 12:14

the two monsters that abused the 2 month old baby girl Sad Angry

sparklymieow · 23/03/2006 12:16

I live near French and Webster, it was local news here, If they are rehomed back into the area, I believe they will not live very long

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