Mumsnet full of inane females according to Petronella Wyatt

[scaryteacher]

www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/9115575/The-state-penalises-women-who-are-childless-and-unmarried-I-might-be-single-but-Im-not-a-failure.html

Methinks she protests too much and should get out more. Isn't she the one that had a thing with Boris?

I liked being childless I miss aspects of it
like sleeping til I woke up
like no mess,no noise,no chaos
like spontaneity
like doing something just because

like being parent too

but hey had lot less gubbins and plastic tat in my life when was childless

Although some of it is bollocks, I actually think she has a point.

Young single childless woman are seen as fine. Middle aged and older single childless woman are seen by many as a bit sad and pathetic. For example, I can't think of one positive example in films or tv of a single childless middle age or older woman whereas there are some (not loads I know) of mums of this age.

Even on here I have seen posters have a pop at relatives/friends described in aibu as childless saying things like - well wait until she is old and lonely and doesn't have any kids to visit her, or just going out and enjoying yourself with no responsibilities is fine when you are young, but when you get older it all becomes a bit meaningless.

And tbh there won't be many mothers on this site who have actually experienced being single and childless middle aged or older women so talking about before you had kids is imo not terribly relevant.

Of course childless women deserve support. But so do women with children. Hence, Mumsnet.

And I know single childless people, and married couples without children, and would never think anything different of them. If you're a generally nice, fun to be around person, I'll be your friend. My life doesn't have to match yours.

Josie Lawrence.

im tired of these navel gazing ' i'ma journo/politic/brush with fame articles.

dya know what love...the centre of the universe doesn't revolve around you. you might think people see you that way - but thats more you than anyone else

and i think it says more of you that you have to defend your POV with an attack on mothers as inane

editing mumsnet down to an inane alfie name thread whilst not mentioning the hugely political element of mumsnet - the book club, the charity support etc...

actually love, your just a dick

People may be friends with someone else, it doesn't mean though that they think their friends life is a good one to have. For example, I do hear people talk pityingly of women and men who are single and childless and older - say 45/50 plus. A lot - although not all - people seem to think this is not an ideal situation to be in and feel sorry that the person/friend they know never met someone special or had a chance to have kids.

I know in reality research into happiness shows that those who choose to be single and childless are actually the happiest group statistically in the uk - obviously different if you did not choose this. And anecdotally my DP's ex is long term single and childless and about 50 and seems really happy in her life. She has chosen never to live with anyone and seems to really enjoy being by herself and doing what she wants.

Agree with Lesley (although I'm still bitter about lack of wedding invite).

Whenever SACs names come up in conversation, although it may well start with "Yes, she's moved to NY, got promoted to partner, has 8 holidays a year and a Ferrari. She's loving it. " someone else will always say "Yes, but it's a shame she's got no-one to share it with" or "Yes, but do you think she's really happy" Agggggghhhhhhhh. Double Arghhhhhhhhh. The only real logic for these comments is that lack of DH/kids is seen as a great life shortcoming.

And I also agree that this does only kick in in the late 30's when the childless state looks like it risks becoming permanent. SAC up to age of 35 is still unlikely to ruffle feathers.

Well, as DD2 would say, cry about it Petronella.

If you want support (or even nice friends) do like every single group and individual you vilify in your silly article -- cultivate it.

And don't go around comparing yourself to the plight of Jews, blacks and gays while pictured perched in an expensive outfit on a cafe chair while a veiled and covered from head to toe woman drags her child down the street in the background.

Toptramp, where were you when the Ms thread broke out in Feminism?

I know single, childless people who are happy to be so and why not? They live life completely on their own terms and love it. Wouldn't occur to me to pity them. It's never been what I wanted; I'm happy to be married and have children, but it's fine if it's what they want. Horses for courses!

Well, I am not surprised that 'Petronella' was drawn to the baby names thread [bitch]

I dislike these articles. Not for the original thought behind them, but for the examples given. They are so contrived. She says that she has friends who say that she is a pain to invite to dinner parties because she never brings a man. Utter nonsense. No-one speaks like that, unless she has some dreadful friends.

Yes, but at least amusing made-up examples make a change from Kylie 'she put her career first and look where it got her' Minogue and Jennifer 'aw, poor Jen, at least she's pregnant now at last, oh no, she's not, still, she's got her nice legs and long holidays, hasn't she?' Aniston.

I don't think we are full I think we could fit her in

Sorry I know I am repeating myself but I am surprised by the refusal of some on here to believe the crass and hurtful comments from her 'friends'.

I have heard people say stuff like this over the years. Count yourself lucky if you haven't. My favourite so far was from woman at toddler group (who did not know I was a single parent) - when I was explaining a single parent friend of mine was having a hard time she said 'single mothers! I never think of them, why would I?' (said with big grin and tinkly laugh)

My second favourite when out with group of married women I didn't know very well, I was drifting off a bit because they were being frankly very tedious, comparing and contrasting the size of their 'push rings' - one said out of no where 'o look! She is jealous of us and our husbands!' what the actual fuckity fuck??

I am afraid my experience of couples is that there is an enormous amount of smuggery, even when their coupledom experiences seem pretty dire to me. I have certainly been object of pity on many occasions. So I think she has a point.

I agree with you spero

True enough Spero -- and some people think divorce is contagious, I have found.

Really Spero? I am that anyone would say that!

I am good friends with a couple who are actively choosing not to have children, and my beloved SILS are I think not having them. They are 39 and 40 now, so it seems like they would have if they were going to, but who knows? Anyway, we just talk about other things. I love my DS and love being a mother, but I have plenty of other interests! My very best friend also does not have children; she and her husband plan on it but not for a few years. And I also have a good friend who is a single mother to a DD with another DC on the way, and I wouldn't dream of speaking to her derisively about "not being able to get seal the deal"! She just hasn't found a partner yet, and it doesn't seem to be very high on her list of priorities. So what??

I think people need to find new friends!

O great.not only am I a pariah single mother, but I mix with knobbers. Am jealous that there is clearly a world out there where people don't say shite things.

But all you people acting surprised - are you part of a loved up couple? If so, these remarks won't be made in your earshot as you are part of the socially accepted gang.

All the single mothers I know agree that we definitely get treated differently by the couples when it comes to socialising etc.

I clearly need new friends.

I was thinking about that, and it occurred to me that in my office, we have a very large proportion of single childless women in their 30s, 40s and 50s. So presumably that does give a very different atmosphere at work - it kind of knocks out any attempt to say 'poor X, she has such a sad life' over coffee, because X and Y and Z are all blatently having a very happy life.

In fact, from time to time, we huddle in the tea room when my child-having colleague is out of the way, and talk about how awful it must be to have a small baby and how odd it is that her partner phones her all the time.

Most of the childless women I know are highly successful in their respective jobs. I imagine being the leading authority in your field is a pretty good protection against being treated like a pariah: too many people are going to need to stay in your good books.

As for individual women making unkind remarks, that happens equally to women who marry and women who have children: I have had colleagues make less than encouraging remarks on both occasions. Anyone who thinks professional mothers never have to endure cruel remarks about choosing to reproduce is also living in cloud cuckoo land. It still doesn't make me think of myself as a pariah.

I have never been on the receiving end of comments about my reproductive facilities (probably because my field is absolutely chokka with working mothers).

But I don't think this should be a debate about who gets the most spiteful comments most of the time.

I have no doubt that we have all been on the receiving end of some unpleasant barbs at some point as sadly, there do seem to be quite a lot of insecure people out there.

The point however, with which I agree, that single and/or childless women seem to come in for more than their fair share of vitriol. And it is interesting to speculate way. If those coupled up are so happy, why pick on those who are so unfortunate not to share their happiness? It makes me think that we represent something else than just being the object of their pity.

But spero I think there's a peculiar kind of unpleasantness directed at the femininity of childless women, that's not the same as the unpleasantness directed towards single mothers - it's a judgement about their characters that simply isn't made about a childless man. For a women not to have a child somehow allows observers to assume she's too cold, or too picky, or too focused on her career to 'do the natural thing and have a baby'.

In much the same way it allows parents to speculate about married friends who have not yet had children - are they TTC? Is it her holding things up (it's usually assumed to be the woman delaying, ime)? Is one of them infertile? Do you think they're doing IVF? Why oh why are they not joining our wonderful parent club? Is their marriage on the rocks? ARE THEY HAVING ENOUGH SEX? etcetcetzzzzzz

A single mother comes in for a lot of stick, but her natural maternal instinct, and therefore her identity as a woman, isn't questioned in the same insidiously undermining and hurtful way as a woman who hasn't had a child.