Cap on benefits to 26k- am I missing something?

[buggyRunner]

As far as I can gather it's the normal benefits ie housing/ cb and wtc. This seems like a large sum. Is it accross the board or does it include disability related benefits? Are the figures misleading?

And my point is that the only thing that will result from this benefits cap is more poverty, more homelessness and LESS working families. As a LOT of NMW jobs won't employ you if you are in temporary accomodation, as you are officially 'of no fixed abode'.

While Private Landlords (and now even social LL's like councils and Housing Associations) are ALLOWED to charge extortionate rents, this situation is NOT going to improve.

And WHY on earth are people fussing about how MUCH those on benefits get? SURELY surely surely the issue is that NMW ISN'T ENOUGH TO LIVE OFF, SO THE LOW-PAID EMPLOYED HAVE TO CLAIM HOUSING BENEFIT AND TAX CREDITS IN ORDER TO SURVIVE.

80% of Housing benefit claimants are EMPLOYED. 80%. So 80% of the people that this cap will hit the hardest are the EMPLOYED. WORKERS. PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT WORKSHY 'SCROUNGERS'.

Oh - and the orange velvet cake turned out lovely, if anyone was wondering. It's for DS3's 1st birthday tomorrow.

Twoifbysea, your household income is less than £26,000 and you receive no benefits? How so?

Oh - I tried to start to set up a cake-decorating service, only to get told by the Housing Association that I rent my house from that I will be evicted for breach of my tenancy agreement if I run ANY sort of a business from my house. Even Avon. .

I'm sure you should be getting some HB at the very least, TwoIfBySea. If not some Tax Credits too, if you have any childcare costs. Though with no childcare costs, if you earn over £17.7kpa, you don't get anything. When my Ex-P was living with us, and was earning £16.8k pa, we got just £4.28 a week WTC.

HuntyCat no need for me to post you speak my words eloquently, thankyou!
Glad cake turned out lovely, happy birthday little one

And were STILL better off than I am now. It's no fucking walk in the park. The only reason I have the internet is because my UNCLE is paying for it so that the dc can do their homework. OK I get the use of it when the dc aren't using it - but THAT is how come I have the net.

The cap is of course a very good thing, and long overdue - but it is far too weak.

There are too many loopholes, transitional arrangements, tapers and exemptions - but worse - £26k is an absurdly large figure. £12k would be far more appropriate - that is equivalent to a salary of about £15k.

Set aside families with disabilities for a moment.

My post is not aimed at them.

Hunt posted the amounts a lone parent with children could expect in benefits after their rent and council tax was paid.

I must admit I was a bit shocked at just how much disposable income they were left with.

Living in London is expensive but in other cheaper parts of the country it's quite a large amount of disposable income. Especially when free prescriptions, free dental care and possibly free school meals are also available.

And as the family are renting they don't have home maintenance costs, bolier service costs, buildings insurance premiums to cover.

And if they are not working the don't have transport costs, maintining working wardrobe etc.

I think that amount of disposable income far exceeds many of those familes who are working at minimum wage or working and living in expensive areas with mortgages to pay.

Before I get flamed - I am not talking about families with disabled loved ones and I am not talking about the higher costs assocaited with living in the capital.

Just very shocked at the amounts involved.

Hunty

Firstly has anyone on this thread suggested you'd be better off on IS or that you are workshy? I haven't seen it.

And again, we're not discussing on this thread whether the low paid should/should not have to claim housing benefit or not.

All we are debating is whether or not a limit of £26k per family is fair.

From my point of view, if you cannot manage on £26k of government money then you need to make some adjustments which may yes....involve you having to move home. Just like someone who is working or any other family for that matter would.

Secondly your example of low paid people having to claim housing benefits & tax credits. Again, is it really right that someone should work 16 hours AND get paid £2100 extra per month in benefits presumably because they are living somewhere which most other families who cannot claim benefits cannot afford?

Personally I'm not saying anything about you personally. But what i'm saying is that in general, I think the cap is fair.

Benefits on 26k net income - you're joking right? That's £35k gross remember! Housing benefit in this area stops at around £17k gross income. If you're lucky you might get £500 odd a year CTC (not for much longer I'm sure). No childcare element of WTC, or certainly minimal.

As a family we EARN around 26k, after tax and plus benefits, it's more than 26k pa.

When we EARNED 17k, after tax and plus benefits, we got about 26k pa.

When we were both UNEMPLOYED we would have netted about 15.5k pa.

The people who get such huge amounts are not easy simple cases, your average joe bloggs family doesn't get 26k for being employed, those who do will get no more cash in hand than any other unemployed family, it goes on their rent.

Rent is the problem here. Rent.

I'm not suggesting that TwoIfBySea is on £26k net income btw. I'm sure that is a very long way off - as it is for us.

Honestly that figure of £26k tax free is something that many working people - including those in professional jobs - can only dream of.

Have you totted up your TC and CB gaelicsheep? I hadn't done it before today - which is how I worked out the above. We have quite substantially always been better off working.

Gaelicsheep no benefit claimant is actually getting £26k. Where such large amounts are involved it is invariably because of very high housing costs. This money does not go to the claimants but to their landlords.

Housing beneit and high rents are a chicken and egg scenerio.
You have working people seeing their rent pushed up to the maximum housing allowence and don't forget the discretionary payments that go on top of those for needy cases. Needy being the squeeky wheel that refuses to bugger off out of their offices.

I'm not saying I'm not better off working. What I take issue with it the House of Lords saying - if they did - that "no one can survive" on less than £26k a year. That is clearly nonsense and totally dependent on what area of the country you live in for one thing.

And yes I realise much of any benefits figures is rent, but people renting privately have to pay those rents too and as I said in this area HB stops at around £17k - as a family we were on 18k gross with a child and we were ineligible for HB. Our rent was £600 a month - God knows what we'd have done if we had a similar income in the south east, although one hopes the HB threshold would be higher there.

I think we get about £2000 a year in CB (2 children) and CTC. That makes our income about £23k net I think.

CB should absolutely be excluded from the calculations as it is supposed to be a universal benefit, although the Govt seems determine to abolish that principle. Obviously only rich pensioners are deserving of universal benefits there days.

I'm not taking issue with individuals, only the Government's warped logic on these matters.

Huntycat
BTL Landlords CAN'T reduce their rent - or accept HB/LHA claimants in most cases. Because of either their mortgage or insurance, or both.

Then the people that BOUGHT their ex-council houses started letting them out. Which left lots less social housing. contradiction here - firstyou say landlords can't let to HB claimants then you say ex council house owners are letting their houses

So some people who would have, previously, been housed in CHEAP social housing, had no choice but to rent privately, and pay higher rent. Which they couldn't cover out of their income. So the council covered it via, originally, rent rebate, then HB, and now LHA. if you are not in a council house and cannot pay the high rent then you are probably not living in the area in the first place unless you are sleeping on the street or have arrived as an immigrant or playing the system, and I see little evidence of families on the street

And because there was a much higher demand for private rented housing - the price went up.

So it was NOT the 'rise' in housing benefit that pushed rent prices up. It was the fact that DEMAND for social housing outstripped the SUPPLY.if this was true due to the present slump in the housing market there will be many more properties being rented out as owners cannot sell , this will result in/will have resulted in a fall in rents but this has not happened due to subsidy by tax payer

The only beneficiaries? The BTL LL's. Like David Cameron. Is it any wonder that he doesn't want to impose a cap on the rent that private LL's can charge when it will directly hit his own pocket. a cap in rents for the whole country?? not possible

If they had a home in Notting Hill repossessed, then it is the council in Notting Hill that is responsible for finding them a home. In their borough. And if that was the ONLY Private rented house that was of a suitable size, where the LL WOULD accept HB/LHA - then they would have had NO choice but to take it.If they had a home in Notting Hill repossessed then they have a BIG income as homes in NOtting Hill are v expensive so they look for somewhere to rent, if that means a move to the home counties and commute hard cheese, they should get on with it like the rest of the population

I don't see what difference it makes that the money goes to the landlords. It is still state money that is being allocated to that person or family for housing costs.

When I work out what I earn I dont automatically take off the money that goes straight to my mortgage provider. It's the same thing, except renters don't have to pay for house maintenance.

zephirine but the taxpayer is still funding that £26K for the benefit of the claimant. Whether the money actually passes through their hands is irrelevant. It is used to pay for accommodation for them, that they would otherwise not be able to live in.

Hunty, I have a question,
you are passionate about private landlords. What are people supposed to do when their costs are going through the roof, when their income from residential property is the only thing keeping their family afloat? when there is no way of them selling the properties because they then too would be added to the list of families in financial crisis (house prices dropped since properties purchased)
You mention that we should all be aware that people are not statistics - I totally agree btw - but you have to remember that landlords are people too, who have costs and bills to pay and families to support.

26000 does not seem like a very small amount of money, especially after tax. As someone above has said, that is the equivalent of 35K. Not exactly a minimum wage job.

Many people work really hard for much less than that.

There has to be an incentive to work.

It makes a difference when it is being implied that unemployed families are being given more disposable income than they would have working.

This is simply not true.

gaelicsheep I could dream of £26k wages to live off! And most of my friends are in the same wage bracket as I am. Those with dh/dps are slightly better off but not by much.

As WetAugust said, disposable income when you are not on benefits is greatly reduced by the cost of living, paying for everything yourself.

When all is said and done though being self reliant is scary but I can say that what is mine I bought with my money and I cannot teach my dts that the benefits system is anything more than a hand up when you are down. I was on benefits when ex-h left, I didn't get the massive handouts I saw some get, there were a lot of people who actively avoided any sort of job, but I wanted to provide for my family and that was the end of it.

I have one friend, also a lone parent, who is in private rent and can barely afford to heat the house for her ds. So when they talk of poverty and poor they need to stop thinking of people in benefits who have that safety blanket and start looking at people who are working.

Disposable income is a total red herring. My family's disposable income after mortage, bills, petrol, food, etc. - is about £50 a month. The only income that counts is total net income - for benefits claimants that includes their housing benefit. About time too. Doesn't mean I agree with the way the policy is being implemented though and I am aware - to say again - that most benefits claimants won't be getting anything like £26k net.

No, gaelic, the lords did not say that. And yes the high housing benefit payments only apply where there are high housing costs. Would you prefer for all the benefit claiming families in London and the south east to come and live in your town with you to save on HB?

IUse, here's the great thing about a mortgage: play your cards right and you'll own a thumping great asset at the end of it. That's why you don't get benefits to help you pay for it. (Unless you rent it out to someone else via the state of course).