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Original poster

Cameron uses UK veto - what will it mean for us and Europe (and the rest of the world)?

268 replies

Callisto · 09/12/2011 08:10

Just that.

I'm glad that DC had the balls to use the veto - the treaty being discussed would not have been good for Britain and could have been bad. However, the Asian markets have already responded by falling and I'm guessing that that US and Euro markets will fall too. So, are there any economists (or otherwise) out there who can throw some light on what may happen next?

OP posts:
claig · 09/12/2011 22:24

But do you really believe that the Eurozone will be the Titanic?
I think it has long been the plan to have a tighter fiscal union and that is now on the horizon, due to this financial crisis. And the European public won't be allowed to vote on it. The biiger teh crisis, the more likely the public will be forced to accept fiscal union.

iloverainbows · 09/12/2011 22:25

Agree maypole, I think he is trying to avoid a referendum too. We aren't like the Irish i.e. will keep voting until the 'right' answer is delivered. I do think he is protecting the city though and I do think this is hard for the public to swallow and I do think they will go elsewhere and the risk of testing this is too great. I just begrudge giving Europe more money to fritter away. I can't help but think about all the money that is spent on all these MEPs and the budget etc and wonder if we just said, oh well that was fun but actually it didn't work. As you were everyone, carry one. I think we would all be fine.

maypole1 · 09/12/2011 22:27

So we have Norway and Switzerland in the EC and then we will have england in the EU and maybe some other countries then others in this new thing god the whole thing is a big fucking mess

France and Germany are showboating for their elections next year they will. Be punished the French won want the germans in charge

MrsJAlfredPrufrock · 09/12/2011 22:36

Switzerland seem to manage just fine on the outside of the EU.

claig · 09/12/2011 22:39

The Euro will one day be the most powerful currency in the world and Russia will probably join it. There will be a huge battle to stop that happening, but I think it will fail. I think we will eventually join too.

This financial crisis is just a stepping stone to the inevitable and may in fact be the means of achieving it without allowing the public to vote against it.

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/currency/8163347/Putin-Russia-will-join-the-euro-one-day.html

claig · 09/12/2011 22:42

'Speaking at the same event, Josef Ackermann, chief executive of Deutsche Bank, echoed Mr Putin and said he could imagine Russia joining a common European currency.'

edam · 09/12/2011 22:48

Fiscal union is inevitable if EU nations are to sustain a single currency. This crisis happened largely because European leaders tried to fudge that issue. You can't have one currency but 17 different tax and spending arrangements. I'm glad we aren't in the euro btw.

maypole1 · 09/12/2011 22:49

Well of Germany say so .... She splutters
Germany also said the eruo was a good idea only 8 years on massive FAIL

They didn't even bother to cheack the details of those entering their club

My son could of told them greece were not a sound bet so exuses me if I don't take much notice of what german experts have to say

claig · 09/12/2011 22:50

Although, maybe we won't join it and we may become the Airstrip One of Oceania (together with the United States etc.), and Russia will be part of Eurasia together with the rest of Europe.

Orwell's vision is starting to become more possible.

amicissima · 09/12/2011 22:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

claig · 09/12/2011 22:53

'Germany also said the euro was a good idea only 8 years on massive FAIL'

It's a trick. It's not a fail. This has been used to create a fiscal union without the public opposing it.

'They didn't even bother to check the details of those entering their club'

It was done deliberately and they all knew what was going on. They even put advisers in to Greece etc. to advise them how to draw up their figures.

claig · 09/12/2011 22:56

'Both Merkel and Sarkozy have made alarming comments on not ruling out conflict.'

When international reserve countries change, times become very dangerous. The old elite does not want to relinquish power and teh new elite are determined to supplant them. This is about big money and big power and conflict may be a possibility in order to achieve what the new elite want.

edam · 09/12/2011 22:57

Yes, the overthrow of elected governments by EU bureaucrats, France and Germany is astonishing and terrifying. They aren't even bothering to hide their contempt for democracy.

Countries that broke the euro rules include both France and Germany, btw. They do not have any moral high ground here.

claig · 09/12/2011 22:57

international reserve currencies not countries

claig · 09/12/2011 23:05

' You can't have one currency but 17 different tax and spending arrangements.'

Yes, the elite have known that all along, but they didn't dare say it because of that awkward thing democracy because the public would not have accepted it. They had to do it step by step, and now the time for fiscal union has come. And it cannot be achieved without the financial crisis, because again the people would not accept it unless there was severe financial hardship.

But now the Italians cheered the demise of democractic Berlusconi and the arrival of the technocrats. They have been played like a kipper and they will continue to be played like a kipper as events unfold.

Peter Hitchings has an interesting article on the rise of the technocrats and what it means

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2063693/Italy-Greece-debt-crisis-How-long-grey-dictators-march-London.html

bemybebe · 09/12/2011 23:33

russia will be swallowed by china before it joins euro claig

claig · 09/12/2011 23:42

bemybebe, Russia is still a bigger military superpower than China.
The Russians are a very good fit for Europe, due to their huge energy resources. There have been quite a lot of talks between the European powerhouse, Germany, and Russia about closer cooperation.

But all sorts of conflicts may occur in the future to stop closer union.

maypole1 · 09/12/2011 23:47

It will never happen the little thing of human rights will get in the way

bemybebe · 09/12/2011 23:51

there is no way russia is going to join eu; cooperation is all good and well but anti-western sentiment has been wipped up for such a long time, it will be extremely difficult to get rid of it in medium term (impossible in the short term)

the way russia is currently developing (or rather not)vis-a-vis china's growth, it is very conceivable that there will be a major conflict on the russian south-eastern borders, some of which are still disputed by china, in the next 10-15 years.

but this is a topic for a different thread

bemybebe · 09/12/2011 23:54

i will be watching with interest news about tomorrow democratic protests around russia 2pm (Moscow time) and how the authorities will deal with them

claig · 10/12/2011 00:05

Just to correct an error, I said Peter Hitchings, it is actually Peter Hitchens

demetersdaughter · 10/12/2011 01:51

We've always had one foot out of Europe in one way or other and I don't think this will have a huge effect on us because we have always been sceptical.
The worldwide economy could just have something to do with China having 1/4 of all the manufacturing base and we need to adapt to that.
How many of us have been baffled by many of these European laws passed from Brussels by politicians we never voted for?

mathanxiety · 10/12/2011 02:49

The Euro remains a very sound idea eight years on and under new conditions and improved collaboration, it can only grow sounder.

The UK, on the other hand, will get the bum's rush out of Europe some time in the next ten years. Britain's position of wishing to enjoy all the benefits and take on none of the risks of membership will become increasingly unsustainable. Some time in the next ten years Britain will have to decide once and for all whether to stop the coy game she has played vis a vis Europe since joining the EEC in 1973 and cast her lot entirely with her obvious economic partners, or to chance the waters with former Imperial underlings, all of which have formed new allegiances and have developed trade relationships with their nearest neighbours (because this is eminently sensible but apparently not obvious to British politicians). Canada is part of NAFTA. Australia/NZ is fast coming into the American sphere militarily; in terms of trade, China is her most important partner. India hard to see exactly what India could want Britain for. Both the US and China (her current suitors) have much more to invest than Britain has. That leaves what South Africa and various other African states? Good luck there. Nigeria most likely won't be willing to cut Britain much of a deal for oil...

Euroscepticism is a profoundly irrational position to take, whether applied to the ideal of the EU or the Euro. The idea that Britain's financial sector can operate independent of European regulations (or that anyone can operate independent of the American system and increasingly the Chinese) is a fallacy. Britain is not a big enough player to go it alone and the days of the Empire are long gone. Even the days of the successor empire (the American Empire) are waning, and Britain is looking at a future of trying to punch impossibly above her weight if she thinks staying aloof from Europe, or worse still cutting loose from Europe, is the way forward.

mathanxiety · 10/12/2011 02:53

Claig, are you saying that Berlusconi has been anything but an unmitigated disaster for Italy?

mathanxiety · 10/12/2011 02:56

..Speaking of course as a citizen of a country where a technocrat, an economist and former Secretary of the Department of Finance, is considered a national hero.