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Soham Murder trial

432 replies

codswallop · 05/11/2003 12:04

I am sure this must be indescribably Painful for the parents , But I was thinking in bed - what if I had been selected for that Jury service....

I am soooooo emotional and i reckon that this would seriously affect me for the rest of my life (not saying it wouldnt for others natch).

I know you cant get out of Jury Service But God - how would you cope?

OP posts:
LIZS · 05/12/2003 19:00

Turnupthebass,

Wouldn't they have produced a psychologist as part of the defence though if they were trying to plead an insanity or diminished responsibility verdict. Interestingly no witness has been called to discuss his time at Rampton and the breakdown which delayed the charges, or to imply any mental condition which may have caused him to blank out during the killings and afterwards.

As I understand it they are moving to closing arguments on Monday.

judetheobscure · 05/12/2003 20:02

Yes, the judge now says the case will be finished before Christmas. I've obviously missed some key bits of evidence - aloha mentions a pathologist's report suggesting that the deaths as IH describes them could not have happened. It's silly details that bug me - if Ih's story is that Holly drowned in the bath surely it would help his case to say he did hear a bang (ie she knocked herself out first)? Can't understand how he could have "accidentally" killed Jessica though. But, for murder it all seems to have happened too quickly and be so motiveless. Btw, it turns out that the first MC heard of IH's story was in court, not in April as I thought; I presume her legal team were not told of IH's story for some legal reason. I can't see MC getting off - she lied - does it matter whether or not she believes he is innocent - isn't she supposed to tell the truth regardless - or is that only in court? IH - from the evidence I have heard I couldn't convict - I hope the jury have much more evidence and that they are able to convict as I cannot see how these "accidents" could have happened.

judetheobscure · 05/12/2003 20:04

LIZS - I was interested in the lack of any mental reports. Would that have meant he would have had to enter a plea of guilty to manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility rather than a plea of not guilty to murder. Perhaps he didn't want to spend the rest of his life in Rampton or wherever.

SenoraPostrophe · 05/12/2003 20:07

jto - no, I don't think MC will get off. The reason I feel a bit sorry for her is the terrible public vilification she's received - the worst of it being the rabid crowds outside peterborough crown court last year.

judetheobscure · 05/12/2003 20:16

Agree about the rabid crowds Senora - the worst were the ones who had brought their own children.

janh · 05/12/2003 20:40

jude, what the pathologist said (paraphrased) was that if Holly had fallen straight backwards her head would not have been under water and her legs would have been in the air - I haven't heard/read any evidence about how it would have been if she fell sideways.

IH said something along the lines of his having reached out and put his hand over Jessica's mouth - the pathologist said you can't smother someone with one hand in midair, so to speak - he would have had to either back her against the wall, or put the other hand behind her, or pull her backwards against himself. I don't think IH gave a proper answer to that.

this is the pathologist's evidence.

janh · 05/12/2003 20:50

There'a another bit of evidence I can't find at the moment, which is that there was an acrimonious phone call between IH and MC shortly before the girls got to his house - MC had said she was going out in Grimsby and he was mad about it? - given what she now says about him being controlling and abusive, maybe when they turned up and asked about her he took out on them what he was feeling about her.

I don't see him getting off with any of it - not sure what the jury will feel about her. Technically she is guilty as charged, but she didn't know what she was conspiring about, did she?

"The jury will retire next week to consider its verdicts, the trial judge said yesterday.
Mr Justice Moses said the court would be hearing closing speeches from the prosecution and defence at the start of next week. Once these were completed he would sum up the case."

anais · 05/12/2003 22:10

From the start I thought MC seemed the colder of the two - she just looks evil. But having read through some of the articles, I feel quite sorry for her. I'm not convinced she actually did know...but then again...this article makes you wonder...

Lou33 · 07/12/2003 14:24

Referring to the post further down about how to control 2 ten year old girls at the same time, I would say fear. He could have told one to do as she was told or he would hurt the other, and vice versa. I think that would work.

bunny2 · 16/12/2003 15:33

Well, are the jury still out? What on earth can they be discussing? Hope there are no bleeding hearts pushing for a manslaughter verdict.

aloha · 16/12/2003 16:02

Technically you can only be found guilty of conspiring to pervert the course of justice if you actually believed at the time that this was what you were doing. Ie if you know someone had murdered someone but were misleading the police on purpose. If, however, you actually believe the person was innocent and you actually intend to help justice along (by protecting an unfairly accused innocent person and so help find the 'real' culprit) you are not guilty. MC says that she was totally convinced that IH was innocent, that the police were trying to fit him up and that this would mean the real culprit went free - this meant she was acting to further the course of justice. Now she says she realises he was guilty all along and wants him found guilty and punished.

bunny2 · 16/12/2003 16:08

I hope she gets put away for a long time.

The jury have been called back in, perhaps they have a verdict, I'll check out the BBC site.

bunny2 · 16/12/2003 16:11

Aloha, when did she say that?

GladTidings · 16/12/2003 16:12

Oh do let us know if you hear anything Bunny2!

bunny2 · 16/12/2003 16:13

will do

Debl · 16/12/2003 16:39

think they have been sent home for third day?

bunny2 · 16/12/2003 16:43

I cant beleive they need so much time. I suppose there is one misguided do-gooder trying to avoid the murder verdict. Yes, they have been sent home, just heard it on the news

aloha · 16/12/2003 16:58

Bunny2 - she said in court that she now realises (from his confession) that he killed them. She called him 'that thing'. I do not think she suspected him. Her life has been destroyed.

Tinker · 16/12/2003 18:52

I think it's very encouraging that they are taking so long - means it's not a jury full of redneck string 'em types.

LIZS · 16/12/2003 19:19

My thoughts too Tinker. It would be pointless for them to rush through the deliberations as there are several legal technicalities in the questions they were directed by the judge to answer (unanimously). They cannot afford to leave any room for an appeal on any technicality. The longer it takes, imho the more likely they are to convict.

Tinker · 16/12/2003 19:27

What happens if they can't reach a unanimous verdict though? Be directed to get a majority one?

bunny2 · 16/12/2003 20:21

Tinker, what does that mean? I thought a verdict had to be unanimous, is there an alternative?

TheGrinch · 16/12/2003 20:53

They can go to 10-2, can't they? (But no lower?)

LIZS · 16/12/2003 21:31

In this case the Judge has specifically asked for a unanimous verdict. Presumably if after an anticipated period of time they have still not all fundamentally agreed the Jury could ask the judge whether the court would accept a majority one . However I don't know how precedented this would be given the seriousness of the charges.

SnowyZebra · 17/12/2003 11:09

Judge has just instructed the jury that they can deliver a majority verdict if they can't otherwise agree.... how can he give such conflicting directions? I thought that Judge was adament it had to be unaminous. Hymph.