Mark Duggan, shot to death by police, triggering the riots, was not armed

[edam]

bloody hell A gun was recovered but it was 14 feet away on the other side of a fence. So the police were not facing an armed man.

Both involved the met
Both had the met saying initially that there were compelling reasons for them to act as they did
Both quickly found out to by lying

• all the other deaths with police involvement and unsatisfactory outcomes. Which aren't so widely reported as they don't involve guns.

There was the result of a court case about a death in custody recently. This stuff is more frequent than people think.

And let's not forget that the actions of these police sparked the riots.

The fact that some communities are really fucked off with people dying at the hands of police and then lies being told.

Mark Duggan was obviously a criminal but shooting him in broad daylight in the middle of the street and then lying about him wasn't exactly impeccable behaviour was it. And it was the straw that broke the camel's back WRT treatment of some communities by the police.

Sardine, the Smiley Culture case is just astonishing. How they expect anyone to believe he killed himself... but they just get away with it, every time.

... and he's very far from the first man who died in suspicious circumstances while under the control of police officers, sadly. Inquest figures here broken down year by year. Seem to be an awful lot of black man, in particular. and here's a report by the IPCC that says 333 deaths in custody since 1998 - no officer has ever been convicted. There's a track record here which should make any reasonable person very suspicious when yet another person dies at the hands of the police.

But Duggan wasn't innocent. He broke the law, he knew the risks. How did the police know he didn't have a gun with him? It's not likely that the gun he collected was his first and only weapon.

I am not saying that the police should be able to shoot whoever they want. But they should be allowed to shoot criminals who they believe may be armed and pose an immediate threat to the police or the public.

And whether you are white, black or purple, if you don't hang around with gangs, have dealings with drugs or weapons, or indeed break the law in any way, you are much less likely to ever have any dealings with the police, much less be shot by one. If you do any of the above things, you can't complain when you end up hurt.

The idea that the rioters have any right to be morally outraged at the actions of the police is laughable.

That's a straw man - no-one said they did. But the police were flaming ignorant when the Duggan family went to the station and officers refused to meet them.

And your claim that innocent people have nothing to fear is sadly untrue. Tell that to the de Menezes family. Tell that to the family of the young man who was suffering a mental health crisis - the police turned up, arrested him and shot him dead.

Charles De Menezes didn't hang around with gangs, have dealings with drugs or weapons, or indeed break the law in any way - as far as I know - and they shot him.

I am sure if you read the accounts of all the people who have died in police custody you will find plenty of examples of people who were not doing much, or even anything wrong.

It's not OK.

Wasn't there a bloke with a broom handle who was shot dead by police?

Ian Tomlinson didn't appear to be in a gang...or a criminal.

Still died with dubious Police involvement.

The police lied about that too didn't they crazynana.

It only came to light because someone had videoed it.

At the time of the original event (so this may not be accurate and I'm sorry if it isn't) I read that Charles de Menezes' visa had expired and he should not have been in the country.

As for a bloke with a broom handle - was he using it to intimidate (eg: pretending it was a shotgun in a plastic bag for example) if so then what did he expect to happen? If he was sweeping his doorstep then of course, he shouldn't have been shot.

And I did say that not breaking the law makes you less likely to be involved with the police. I would rather everyone got upset about the people who are innocent who die in police custody than people like Duggan.

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/feb/10/ukguns.rosiecowan

You are justifying jean charles menezes shooting by saying his visa had expired?

Seriously?

Can I expect the police to take out people for littering, now?

"People like Duggan" - he had a children, a fiancee, parents...

Ian Tomlinson walked into the middle of a riot! If you were walking down the street and saw a riot going on then you wouldn't walk towards it would you? You'd walk the other way as fast as you could. Well I would anyway. If he hadn't been there he wouldn't have died.

I am aware that I am probably coming across as a cold hearted bitch but I don't understand why people walk into these situations, knowing the likely outcome, then complain about it. The police are only human and in the heat of the moment probably have a split second to think "him or me" and I'd be surprised if anyone didn't choose to save themselves. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

If Menezes hadn't broke the law, he wouldn't have been here to get shot. If Duggan hadn't been "collecting" a gun, he wouldn't have given the police reason to shoot him.

And as for Duggan having parents and children - so do the victims of men like him. I feel more sorry for them.

crazynanna that is mental! Did they not warn him before shooting? You know a "put down your weapon or we'll shoot" thing?

When I was a baby my dad was walking me in the pram early on a Sunday morning when he noticed a guy walking down the street waving a machete about. This was before mobile phone so he had to wait until he'd got home before reporting it. He said it was the longest five minute walk of his life trying not to attract this guys attention.

Magneto but they didn't shoot menezes for not having a visa

They said he was going to let off a bomb on teh tube, shop him, and then lied about him.

Indefensible (no matter how hard you try).

Have you never broken the law? Never received points on your driving licence or parked "just for a second" somewhere you shouldn't? Never found some money on the street (10p say) and not handed it in to the police? Never done anythign illegal in your whole life ever ever?

If not well done. But by your logic I reckon about 99% of the population deserve to be shot.

You are blaming ian tomlinson for his own death?
Rather than the person who killed him?

Fucking hell!

And FYI he was trying to find his way home but every route he tried he got turned back towards the MARCHERS. It was not a RIOT where he was killed.

You need to read up on these things before you comment on them.

Magneto: de Menezes hadn't broken the law, and multiple witnesses told the Inquiry that there had been no warning before the police opened fire.

But it seems (seems - this is only an interim report) that Duggan had committed a firearms offence and the police were attempting to apprehend the right man.

No-one has attempted to answer the WWYD I posted above.

No it's OK that menezes was killed as his visa had expired.

But Magneto,Ian Tolinson was at work...he didn't walk into a riot.
He was anewspaper seller around the corner and was trying to get home and had both hands in his pockets when shoved to the ground by a Met officer.

The video of the incident is on Youtube. I don't want to search for it,as watching it makes my head explode with anger!

"For only that can show if a fear for life was reasonable. It's a big WWYD - you need to take the gun off the street. The man with the gun is trying to get away. You can't see his hands. There are innocent civilians around. he's still trying to get away. There are children on the street. He's moving erratically. You know the gun is there. Do you let him shoot first?"

Scaevola you don't know if that's what the situation was when he was killed.