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Th Ideal Society in Islam

427 replies

peacedove · 25/12/2005 07:30

This is in response to ruty, who wrote:

"Peacedove, I would be interested to know what kind of govt and society you view as the ideal. Do you believe in religious freedom, not just for muslims? Do you believe in a separation of State and religion? not a trick question, just asking."

The ideal society is what the prophet [saw] and the rightly-guided Caliphs demonstrated for us. I will detail it by examples later. I wonder if I will be allowed to do that. This is a "mumsy" site, you know

But peace, and tranquility, and a fair society are mumsy topics, too.

To answer your question, freedom of religion is for everyone, Muslim or non-Muslim, the only exception being the practice of Black Magic.

Muslims have found the West liveable because many of the laws here and much of the attitudes of people to their neighbours click with us as being based on Islam, while in many parts of the societies we came from have lost those principles.

For example, equality before law is a principle laid out by the prophet [saw] himself. A woman of the influential tribe of bani Makhzoom was found guilty of stealing, and the closest person to the prophet, the young son Usama of the prophet's employee Zaid was sent to intercede on her behalf. The prophet loved Zaid as a son, and Usama as his own grandson. He had nominated young Usama for an important assignment when on deathbed, passing over many more seasoned Companions. Yet, despite that love, he laid the principle that even if the prophet's own daughter had been involved, she would also have received the same punishment. Throughout Muslim history, you will see many fine examples of that.

Equality before law is so enshrined in our psyche as an ideal that we once had realised in practice, that we resent our societies for having lost it, we resent our leaders for not implementing it, and we love the West for embracing this principle.

When we see the US or other Western countries compromising on this principle, we are baffled and feel betrayed, because we do know our societies have degenerated, but had come to see the West as an embodiment of that principle.

Take the case of the welfare state. The first welfare state in history was that of the second Caliph, who said that even if a dog dies on the banks of the river Euphrates due to hunger, I will be asked about it.

The principle for this had been laid down by the prophet [saw]. Loans in Islam are to be discharged, but the prophet said: if anyone of you dies leaving an estate, it is for his heirs (after paying the loans), but if he dies destitute (or his loans are greater than his assets), then the loans are for us (to pay). The state assumes the payment of such loans.

As opposed to dictatorships or the Divine right of Kings, the prophet said, something like: "everyone of you is a shepherd, and on the day of Judgmnent he will have to answer for his flock."

He similarly said, something like: "The ruler of people is actually their servant."

That is the principle which was actualy put in practice, and when we see or read of the lawmakers or the Prime Ministers doing what ordinary people do, using public transport, living in houses no better than the ordinary man, the husband helping the wife in household chores, this rings a bell with us because this is what our societies were like, before degeneration. I would have liked to post some of those stories, which will show what our ideal is, and how close the West is to our ideal, and where the West is far from that.

There are many examples, and many laws in the West ring a bell with us, because these are what Islamic societies had and should have, but because these societies, like the other third world countries, have developed a feudal/ tribalistic structure, having lost the Islamic values, they are far from Islam in many ways.

Islamic laws are based on common sense, and for the most part the West's laws and practice are mostly based upon this. For example the fundamental rule of the road was enunciated by the prophet [saw] - that you should not be an obstacle in someone's path. In fact we are asked to remove even pebbles from the path. Thus the laws on traffic make sense. If we try to understand this a little more deeply, it becomes a rule that we should be helpful to others, rather than being obstacles in the lives of others, provided what they are doing is legal and moral. An eminent principle, that helps society, and I have found in practice within Western societies, but the third world countries had lost it, mostly where feudalism prevailed.

Again for example, the fact that when someone says something in the West, there is trust that he has spoken the truth, this is Islamic, is one because Islam teaches Muslims to speak only the truth. The rule that an accused is innocent unless proven guilty, that is Islamic too.

And again the fact that contracts are to be recorded in writing, is an Islamic injunction.

We are taught to be civil and helpful. If we are not being so, it is because we have forgotten that particular command.

Muslims thinkers have thought long that the renaissance of Islam will take place in the West. This will happen due to internalisation of most Islamic values, which has already taken place here, NOT as a result of conquest by Islam. Islamic principles are already recognised and applied in the West, the only obstacle in the way of accepting Islam is ignorance.

Islam teaches tolerance. It tells us that all mankind is from the same father and mother, Adam and Eve. It tells us life is so valuable that the taking of one innocent life is like murdering the whole of humanity. It tells us that wastage and over-consumption are sins, which will have to be answered for.

Islam teaches respect for other species, and for the environment.

Of course, there are some areas where the West is away from Islamic principles. Europe in having lost or relegating religion has gone in a direction away from God, and that may now be a hurdle in the embracing of Islam by Europe.

Why we don't see much of this in practice in Muslim countries, is something that has occupied Muslim thinkers for a long time, and there have been many movements for rectification. Not all of them have been comprehensive, not all of them have blamed the West. Unfortunately again, instead of trying to understand these movements, the politicians and leaders with agendas, people with vested interests, from within and without, have sabotaged that process.

Why I say based on Islam? because Europe learnt from Islam and Muslims. Muslim societies fell into corruption and disarray, but Islam does not.

The Tatars are a classic example. They destroyed Muslim lands, and dispersed Muslim peoples, conquering their lands, committing atrocities even worse than the Nazis, but they eventually reverted to Islam, NOT as a result of conquest, but because the principles of Islam appealed to them.

There is one major difference from today's West, and that is to us all these good laws come from Allah and His prophet, so we want to establish these in the name of Allah.

OP posts:
ruty · 27/12/2005 15:35

stitch people are born that way and islam can only impose a false reality in that case.

ruty · 27/12/2005 15:36

and paedophiles are a totally different scenario. They are mentally ill. Gay people, on the whole, are not.

stitch · 27/12/2005 15:36

ruty, im sorry but i disagree with the idea that a person is born a homosexual.
i am sorry about what happened to your friend. i truly dont know what to say.

Blandmum · 27/12/2005 15:37

My view of 'sin' (very lapsed baptist me!) id 'who does it injure?'

Who does consenting gay sex 'injure'?

And why on earth should loving another man and being honest about it be cause for being put to death?

And fully agree that people are gay, because they are gay, just the way that they were made, by god or genetics.

And before PD likens this to paedophilia, that abuses children who do not wish the acts to happen, a quite different situation.

Blandmum · 27/12/2005 15:38

Stitch, the punishment for lesbianism, is 100 lashes

monkeytrousers · 27/12/2005 15:39

Re: stoning, we might not do it literally, but IMHO many people (most of them women) are ritually flayed in the tabloids and gossip magazines. Again, it?s just a thought.

MB, I wasn?t saying this debate was hysterical, just that it has descended into such before..when people forget to just agree to disagree..

And re misogyny, we are a misogynistic race, it?s inherent in human nature whether we like it or not ? not to say it shouldn?t be challenged.

stitch · 27/12/2005 15:40

there was a time in this country when gay people were considered mentally ill.

paedophiles are sick. but that doesnt excuse them for what they do. i dont believe its ok to think, oh, he's mentally unbalance so has no control over his actions. we all have control over our actions.

stitch · 27/12/2005 15:44

mb, mt and ruty, i still dont beleive that homosexuals are born that way. i think they choose to be that way. and if its consensual sex between adults, well, thats their business.

o god, my train of though has just been completely waylaid by kids. ill come back to this later in the day hoepfully.

ruty · 27/12/2005 15:44

oh come on monkeytrousers thats incredibly flippant. to compare stoning to death to being 'flayed' journalistically. Which would you choose?

Sorry stitch. Have you ever had a close gay friend? It might change your mind.

Blandmum · 27/12/2005 15:47

Re the press MT, I quite agree. Howvere you'd agree that actualy stoning people is worse ?

Having now, largly, got rid of decrimination under the law (if not in fact, which I will freely admit), I don't think it is helpful to ignore discrimination in other laws?

PD maintains that if properly used Sharia is non discriminatory. To my mind that is rather like American's still supporting the Death penalty as 'used properly' it is non discriminatory. Where as in fact, and we all know it is not used in an even handed way. Just like Sharia law.

To my mind, giving falible humans the chnace to pusnish with death of dismemberment is just asking for miscarriages of justice to happen.

Blandmum · 27/12/2005 15:48

ruty, not only have I close friends who are gay, I have never been surprised when they came out.....they were alawys gay! Just like they always had red/brown/blonde hair, or whatever!

monkeytrousers · 27/12/2005 15:53

Stitch, with respect, it doesn't matter what you believe about homosexuality IYSWIM? Science is investigating and seems to be pointing to it being 'caused' by numerous physiological phenomena, genetic and hormonal. As an aside, if homosexuality is found to be genetic then the openness of gay society and the (self)segregation that has arisen from it may result in homosexuality dying out as it were, as 'in the olden days' gay men would still marry and have children while having homosexual relationships 'on the side' as it were..

monkeytrousers · 27/12/2005 15:55

Ruty, it wasn't so long ago that public executions were performed in this country - of course I don't agree with it - but I recognise a latent tendency in the expression of modern day misogyny.

chestnutter · 27/12/2005 15:59

The statement "As a compensation to the persecution of Jews, the land for a Jewish state should have been given to them from Germany, and maybe some other countries that have persecuted them" is nothing more than thinly veiled antisemitism and deeply offensive (not to mention utterly ignorant as to the actual reasons of why and how Israel became the Jewish homeland).

I don't have any problem with Peacedove explaining Islam to those who are interested in it, but frankly he/she should keep his opinions about Jews (as usual disguised as anti-Zionism) to him/herself).

Peacedove - if you want to do something useful as a 'peaceloving' Muslim I suggest you spread your message of tolerance within your own community and look to find a solution to the turmoil which leads young Muslims to look towards the radical Islamism which continues to threaten us all.

ruty · 27/12/2005 16:00

i think its a while since we`stoned anyone to death tho.

stitch · 27/12/2005 16:02

i need a dictionary to go look up the meaning of the word misogyny.

belief is what it all boils down to mt. because that is what religion is all about. faith and belief dont need rock hard evidence. if you beleive in christianity, then you must accept its teachings, whether you agree withthem or not. similarly, if you believe in islam, you must accept what it says in the quran, regardless of whether you agree with it.
its down to faith.

ruty · 27/12/2005 16:02

agree chestnutter that statement was rather iffy. but i guess the way the Israeli govt has treated the Palestinians in recent history has created a huge amount of anger in the Muslim world. It makes me angry.

ruty · 27/12/2005 16:04

i couldn't believe in a religion that turns its back on science thought stitch, and i don't think Islam necessarily does, any more than Christianity does. Faith is one thing, Guidelines laid down by Religions have to be followed with an investigative intelligence and an investigative conscience. You also have to look at religions in cultural and historical context. This is how i look at the Bible.

stitch · 27/12/2005 16:07

why is it that if anyone says anything slightly non positive about israel, they are accused of antisemitism?
as a country, they are currently committing genocide. the atrocities committed by israelli soldiers no no bounds. remeber the tiny baby shot to death? yet because the germans committed atrocities against them more htna half a century ago, it seems that they are allowed todo what they want.
just gets me really riled up.
must go now and worship at the alter of consumerism with my children.

monkeytrousers · 27/12/2005 16:07

Precisely Stitch, and I'm not a religious person, but I do recognise the need for religions.

Chestnutter, I'm really confused about why you are offended. Could you explain the difference between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism?

chestnutter · 27/12/2005 16:13

Ruti, you're right and I would not seek to defend all the actions of the Israeli government in relation to the Palestinians). But Peacedove's tactic of linking the issue of Israel to the Holocaust betrays his classic antisemitism. You are right - the Middle East conflict has caused anger in the Muslim world, but in comparison to other conflicts which have lead to loss of Muslim lives it pales into insignificance (not that this justifies it - I'm just trying to put it in perspective). So why are Jews still the focus of so much anger for Muslims?

chestnutter · 27/12/2005 16:18

And stitch, I'm sure I just said something slightly 'nonpositive about Israel'.

Israel is not committing genocide. That isn't a personal opinion - just a fact about the meaning of the word 'genocide'.

I'm afraid your post simply backs up what I originally said.

chestnutter · 27/12/2005 16:21

Sorry Monkeytrousers I meant to respond to you... anti-Zionism is opposition specifically to the existance of the state of Israel; anti-Semitism is dislike/hatred of Jews. (I'm sure better definitions exist somewhere else though...)

monkeytrousers · 27/12/2005 16:28

Forgive my ignorance but why then is it anti-semetic to link the holochaust with the creation of Israel after the war? The two are linked - but the british are the cause of it surely?

peacedove · 27/12/2005 16:28

"thinly veiled antisemitism"

now that is offensive to me.

If you know the difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism, how could you accuse me of anni-semitism?

The treatment of Jews (and other non-Aryans) by the Nazis and the Fascists was criminal, but how does saying Zionists should have sought a state by taking away Germany's land, and not Palestinians, constitute "my latent" anti-semitism?

I repeat what I said earlier: "we are NOT to hate the Jews".

I would go further, and say that as we share prophets with them, we should be like cousins.

Zionism and the Zionist colonial state in Palestine are different matters.

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