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Th Ideal Society in Islam

427 replies

peacedove · 25/12/2005 07:30

This is in response to ruty, who wrote:

"Peacedove, I would be interested to know what kind of govt and society you view as the ideal. Do you believe in religious freedom, not just for muslims? Do you believe in a separation of State and religion? not a trick question, just asking."

The ideal society is what the prophet [saw] and the rightly-guided Caliphs demonstrated for us. I will detail it by examples later. I wonder if I will be allowed to do that. This is a "mumsy" site, you know

But peace, and tranquility, and a fair society are mumsy topics, too.

To answer your question, freedom of religion is for everyone, Muslim or non-Muslim, the only exception being the practice of Black Magic.

Muslims have found the West liveable because many of the laws here and much of the attitudes of people to their neighbours click with us as being based on Islam, while in many parts of the societies we came from have lost those principles.

For example, equality before law is a principle laid out by the prophet [saw] himself. A woman of the influential tribe of bani Makhzoom was found guilty of stealing, and the closest person to the prophet, the young son Usama of the prophet's employee Zaid was sent to intercede on her behalf. The prophet loved Zaid as a son, and Usama as his own grandson. He had nominated young Usama for an important assignment when on deathbed, passing over many more seasoned Companions. Yet, despite that love, he laid the principle that even if the prophet's own daughter had been involved, she would also have received the same punishment. Throughout Muslim history, you will see many fine examples of that.

Equality before law is so enshrined in our psyche as an ideal that we once had realised in practice, that we resent our societies for having lost it, we resent our leaders for not implementing it, and we love the West for embracing this principle.

When we see the US or other Western countries compromising on this principle, we are baffled and feel betrayed, because we do know our societies have degenerated, but had come to see the West as an embodiment of that principle.

Take the case of the welfare state. The first welfare state in history was that of the second Caliph, who said that even if a dog dies on the banks of the river Euphrates due to hunger, I will be asked about it.

The principle for this had been laid down by the prophet [saw]. Loans in Islam are to be discharged, but the prophet said: if anyone of you dies leaving an estate, it is for his heirs (after paying the loans), but if he dies destitute (or his loans are greater than his assets), then the loans are for us (to pay). The state assumes the payment of such loans.

As opposed to dictatorships or the Divine right of Kings, the prophet said, something like: "everyone of you is a shepherd, and on the day of Judgmnent he will have to answer for his flock."

He similarly said, something like: "The ruler of people is actually their servant."

That is the principle which was actualy put in practice, and when we see or read of the lawmakers or the Prime Ministers doing what ordinary people do, using public transport, living in houses no better than the ordinary man, the husband helping the wife in household chores, this rings a bell with us because this is what our societies were like, before degeneration. I would have liked to post some of those stories, which will show what our ideal is, and how close the West is to our ideal, and where the West is far from that.

There are many examples, and many laws in the West ring a bell with us, because these are what Islamic societies had and should have, but because these societies, like the other third world countries, have developed a feudal/ tribalistic structure, having lost the Islamic values, they are far from Islam in many ways.

Islamic laws are based on common sense, and for the most part the West's laws and practice are mostly based upon this. For example the fundamental rule of the road was enunciated by the prophet [saw] - that you should not be an obstacle in someone's path. In fact we are asked to remove even pebbles from the path. Thus the laws on traffic make sense. If we try to understand this a little more deeply, it becomes a rule that we should be helpful to others, rather than being obstacles in the lives of others, provided what they are doing is legal and moral. An eminent principle, that helps society, and I have found in practice within Western societies, but the third world countries had lost it, mostly where feudalism prevailed.

Again for example, the fact that when someone says something in the West, there is trust that he has spoken the truth, this is Islamic, is one because Islam teaches Muslims to speak only the truth. The rule that an accused is innocent unless proven guilty, that is Islamic too.

And again the fact that contracts are to be recorded in writing, is an Islamic injunction.

We are taught to be civil and helpful. If we are not being so, it is because we have forgotten that particular command.

Muslims thinkers have thought long that the renaissance of Islam will take place in the West. This will happen due to internalisation of most Islamic values, which has already taken place here, NOT as a result of conquest by Islam. Islamic principles are already recognised and applied in the West, the only obstacle in the way of accepting Islam is ignorance.

Islam teaches tolerance. It tells us that all mankind is from the same father and mother, Adam and Eve. It tells us life is so valuable that the taking of one innocent life is like murdering the whole of humanity. It tells us that wastage and over-consumption are sins, which will have to be answered for.

Islam teaches respect for other species, and for the environment.

Of course, there are some areas where the West is away from Islamic principles. Europe in having lost or relegating religion has gone in a direction away from God, and that may now be a hurdle in the embracing of Islam by Europe.

Why we don't see much of this in practice in Muslim countries, is something that has occupied Muslim thinkers for a long time, and there have been many movements for rectification. Not all of them have been comprehensive, not all of them have blamed the West. Unfortunately again, instead of trying to understand these movements, the politicians and leaders with agendas, people with vested interests, from within and without, have sabotaged that process.

Why I say based on Islam? because Europe learnt from Islam and Muslims. Muslim societies fell into corruption and disarray, but Islam does not.

The Tatars are a classic example. They destroyed Muslim lands, and dispersed Muslim peoples, conquering their lands, committing atrocities even worse than the Nazis, but they eventually reverted to Islam, NOT as a result of conquest, but because the principles of Islam appealed to them.

There is one major difference from today's West, and that is to us all these good laws come from Allah and His prophet, so we want to establish these in the name of Allah.

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Blandmum · 25/12/2005 15:22

Peacedove, I've not mentioned the weat, said anything about your atttitude to it, however I do feel that to write a long post as you have done, on Christmas day is no accident, is it? Be honest? You are clear in your desire to convert us. Fair enough I have not problems with that, I find it wearing after a while, no evangelical Christians on the site (and there are several) are so persistant in their drive for converts, a fact which I am sure will please you (and I'm being serious and respectful here, because converts are your aim, aren't they?)

As I posted if I had posted to a site trying to convert the Muslims that post there to Christianity on Eid you would be offendedm wouldn't you?

I am totaly unaware of the other posts that you mention. I am sorry that you have been offended, however your timing was, I am quite sure, very well chosen, was it not?

snowleopard · 25/12/2005 15:56

Though not religious at all, I found Peacedove's post refreshing. "Islamic terror" is a new bogeyman that western governments want us to fear. I really welcome someone explaining more about non-extremist Islam.

Happy Christmas!

peacedove · 25/12/2005 16:19

MB in previous threads you thought we Muslims did not appreciate the West, so I thought I would mention that I have appreciated it here.

Converting others is not for us. We may make dawah (invitation), but in this case as I said, ruty had asked for some answers. My choice was to either delay it until after the vacations, or to do it quickly. I decided to do it quickly because sometimes I am away from the net for long, and I thought if that happens again, I may not be able to answer ruty, which would be a shame.

If someone gets interested in Islam and reverts, it will be by Allah's will alone.

If you do not trust what I say, it is the first time here in the West that I have not been taken at face value, and an eye-opener for me as to how the West is not what I have been considering it to be.

snowleopard thanks for that post.

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peacedove · 25/12/2005 16:40

tambo sorry just saw your post.

(saw) stands for "sallallahu alehi wa sallam", and means "peace and blessings of Allah be upon him". We similarly write (as) or (pbuh) after the names of other prophets, which is shorthand for "peace be upon him", and we similarly write (swt) after Allah, where the (swt) stands for "Subhanahu wa Ta`ala" meaning "Who is free from all blemish and Who is the most High".

Now MB will accuse me again of trying to convert, and all I am doing is answering questions!!!

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Tortington · 25/12/2005 16:41

i have read the thread and dont understand the point. peacedove, respectfully please can you explain what your point(s) are? concisely if poss.

Blandmum · 25/12/2005 16:45

I felt that you were unhappy with the West, to the point that I was rather worried that being in the West was making you very unhappy, not the same thing as saying that 'We Muslim' do not appreciate the west....quite a different feeling , motive and intention, as I am sure you would agree.

I would simply feel that you were taking a more rounded interest in MN if you were rather more even in your posts. I would say this if an Evangelical Christian only posted about the benefits of Christianity.

Your thesis, understandable from your point of view ,is that Islam is preferable to the West. And obviously you are fully entitled to that view and to post about it. But it is sad that this is all you ever want to post about.

tamba · 25/12/2005 16:45

Why do you write (saw) ?

tamba · 25/12/2005 16:46

sorry posts crossed - thank you for answering

peacedove · 25/12/2005 17:10

StickCustardonYourSleighSanta ruty asked me "what an ideal Islamic society would be like. Would there be religious freedom, for example."

I answered that many of the laws and attitudes in the West appeal to us because they are Islamic values, and I gave some examples with a little mention of where these are derived from.

In short, we do not feel out of place with many Western values, which are not Judeo-Christian alone, but have Islamic roots as well.

There are differences, but Islamic society is not about forceful conversion or prevention/ restriction of other people's rights.

the points are:

  1. freedom of religion, except Black Magic.
  2. equality before law irrespective of status
  3. the welfare state looking after the needy, the children, and the destitute
  4. responsible governance
  5. being helpful and not obstructive in others' paths provided what they are doing is moral and legal
  6. trust
  7. putting contracts in writing, for reminder
  8. tolerance
  9. respect for other species (animals) and trees
  10. respect for the environment

MB Islam is not a region. The West (if you want to regard it as a philosophy or a way of life), has several roots, and one of the important ones is Islam.

I am not unhappy in the West. I live in both the East and the West, and I have the best of both worlds. You of all people should have been able to see what good points I have for the West, and how I lament that the third world has lost or diminished some of these values.

What a pity that you refuse to see the good in my posts, to trust, and to accept that this post was made in honesty.

Or maybe it is my fault. Do I really come out as a dishonest person trying underhand to convert unsuspecting MNers to the horribly terrorist cult of Islam?

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Blandmum · 25/12/2005 17:21

I don't 'not see the good' in your posts. I disagree with some. The debate we had a while ago, I felt you had answered ie that you are not totaly unhappy to live in a society and that you have some disagreements with it...fair enough most of us would say the same.

Hoever I'd bet next months pay that you and I disgree on Gay rights and legal status of women in Islam (under Sharia law and also the penalties prescibed by that law)....I very much doubt that either of us will change each other's minds on that, and I am content to leave it at that.

And please, when did I ever say that Islam was a terrorist faith....don't be so insulting! You make some resoned posts and then drop in a ine like this, which spoils the points that you want to make.

Tortington · 25/12/2005 17:40

ya peacedove muchio appreciated

peacedove · 25/12/2005 17:52

misunderstandings removed, shall I conclude MB?

just a little good-natured jab with the terrorist cult thing. Hope you forgive that, too.

you are welcome, StickCustardonYourSleighSanta

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Chandra · 25/12/2005 18:12

Just thought of mentioning that women's and gay's rights can be severely compromised under ANY faith, not only under the muslim faith. Bear in mind that European Christianism is very open but in other places of the world the more machist members of society (women included) are often very religious Christians and for their eyes, a woman with more ambitions than raising her children and serve God and her husband is not exactly a good woman. Forget about gays' rights...

Blandmum · 25/12/2005 18:19

Agree totaly. I only raised Islam with PD in recognition that these were specific areas that I guess we disagree about.

Mercy · 25/12/2005 20:56

Ok Peacedove, please don't use the word 'mumsy'- it's patronising.

Peace, tranquility and a fair society should be a concern/an ideal for everyone

monkeytrousers · 26/12/2005 04:51

Ditto Chandra (hi BTW ) I wish we weren't all so scared/sus about Islam as we were about christianity - there's hardly a difference if we're honest ('cept one operates within capitalism and the other doesn't)

monkeytrousers · 26/12/2005 04:51

..yet..

Blandmum · 26/12/2005 08:27

hmmm, what about how Islam opperates in Saudi Arabia....?

monkeytrousers · 26/12/2005 11:15

Does it stop people shopping? I've never been there so I don't know what compromises may be in place.

Blandmum · 26/12/2005 11:26

Not sure what you are getting at, my comment was in answer to your point ''cept one operates within capitalism and the other doesn't'. The state in Saudi is an Islamic one (granted it is not PD's perfect islamic state, but then neither are any of the western governments perfect Christian ones).

And Saudi is undoubtibly a capitalist society. Thus Islam is operating within capitalism.

SenoraPartridgeinaPearTree · 26/12/2005 11:37

I think the capitalism argument is a huge red herring. The whole world is capitalist to some degree. arguably, the kind of capitalism in the west (and the emphsais on it) has its roots in protestantism (not christianity) but I really don't see what that has to do with anything.

Britain is not a christian country anyway - it is broadly secular and actually I'm proud of that. anybody who wants to make laws in the name of religion rather than in the name of humanity scares me tbh.

Blandmum · 26/12/2005 11:42

FWIW, I agree with you Seniora. The thought of Sharia law fills me with dread. I simply can't see that as MT said Christianiy operates within capitalism and Islam does not, this is patently not true.

And those areas where capitalism isn't encouraged, where Islam is in power (Iran?) aren't so pleasent either.

ruty · 26/12/2005 12:04

phew! only just seen this thread, didn't log on yesterday, spending it with my family. Thankyou, peacedove, for your thoughtful answer to my questions I don't find your post particularly provocative in its timing, after all i asked the question on christmas eve! I do however find the term 'mumsy'patronising too. I object to monkeynutsetc claiming that i am asking peacedove to justify his faith. I am often involved in religon threads as a christian, and people often ask me questions about my beliefs, [and yes this thread belongs there]. I have also been in rather hot headed and passionate debates about my beliefs and about christianity, where people feel very aggressive towards christianity, [and they don't always anymore about christianity than they do about islam] but i do believe it is important to have total freedom of speech and an ability to discuss religions freely without fear.

Peacedove, it is interesting your first description was that of equality of Punishment. For me as a christian what is emphasized is equality of forgiveness. I'm sure this will spark off a row, i don't mean it to, and i'm sure forgiveness is important in islam too,but i thought this was an interesting first description from you. Also, i am sure the west has learnt from older islamic societies, for example from the Ottoman empire, where religious tolerance was very good. But it has also learned a lot from christian teachings, which it seemed you omit to mention. Perhaps the 'good' from Western societies has come from a parallel development, from the good from both christianity and islam.

You say the only reference to governance in the bible is the 'render what is Caesar's unto Caesar..' quote. Well the thing is, Christ's teachings are about the revolution of society under the redemptive laws of love, and through his actions and his parables he teaches how this affects every layer of society and every moral dilemma. Christ does not attack homosexual love, though many christians do. Christ had equality amongst his friends in regards to gender - he kept amongst his best friends a former prostitute and mixed with those rejected by the rest of 'moral' society. Forgiveness and love still has the potential to revolutionize our human society, and part of this means embracing those that are different to you, Christian embracing Muslim, Muslim embracing Jew, Heterosexual embracing Homosexual. But just as christians [certainly blair and Bush] not following Christ's teachings threaten the development of our society, so do fundamentalists of other religions [not an criticism of you personally peacedove.] i think more debate between those of different faiths and those of no faith at all is crucial and so i thank you peace dove for you patient arguments.

peacedove · 26/12/2005 20:25

thank you ruty for showing up and ...

don't want to be argumentative, I wrote down what came to mind without thinking of arranging in any particular order. and since I had started by telling what the West has that the third world has lost, the first thing that came to mind was equality before law. If you ever spend some time in the third world, that is the primary thing you will notice. And I have said that this is due to feudalism, although Capitalists seems to be able to buy themselves out of a jam.

Love and forgiveness are also the most important ingredients in Islam, but I have not mentioned this. Love and care for others is universal. What you say about Jesus's (pbuh) teachings is correct. I hope this isn't considered offensive but he is one of the most important of our prophets, and we consider all prophets as teaching the same message. We believe that all nations have been sent the same message.

The differences are quite important, too, but in the Christmas spirit I thought I would list the common things. I will leave the other things for later, if ever there is a later.

I did not specifically list what we Muslims miss in the West, and which is found aplenty in the East, and which is the most important -- the call of the muaddhhin to prayer "There is none greater than God".

That takes away whatever is getting me down, whatever injustice is there.

Sorry fot using the word "mumsy", but no patronising was intended.

Re the learning from older Islamic societies

actually the Renaissance of Europe is based heavily upon earlier works: e.g. of Abu Rushd (Avorres in English. I may have slipped up on the spelling).

Perhaps the Moderators can splice this thread away from this section, and place it where it belongs.

peace to you all!

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peacedove · 26/12/2005 21:43

sorry, a correction or clarification.:

  1. I won't give the full adhan here, but I have merged two phrases in the adhan. Both have the same effect on me. "There is no god but Allah", and "Allah is Great" or "Allah is the Greatest".

  2. We think there is One God for all, and Allah coms from al-ilah = One God, so we often replace the word "Allah" with "God". Trinitarians would not accept that equality.

Sorry for introducing theology. I was just trying to correct my mistake of merging two phrases.

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