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Th Ideal Society in Islam

427 replies

peacedove · 25/12/2005 07:30

This is in response to ruty, who wrote:

"Peacedove, I would be interested to know what kind of govt and society you view as the ideal. Do you believe in religious freedom, not just for muslims? Do you believe in a separation of State and religion? not a trick question, just asking."

The ideal society is what the prophet [saw] and the rightly-guided Caliphs demonstrated for us. I will detail it by examples later. I wonder if I will be allowed to do that. This is a "mumsy" site, you know

But peace, and tranquility, and a fair society are mumsy topics, too.

To answer your question, freedom of religion is for everyone, Muslim or non-Muslim, the only exception being the practice of Black Magic.

Muslims have found the West liveable because many of the laws here and much of the attitudes of people to their neighbours click with us as being based on Islam, while in many parts of the societies we came from have lost those principles.

For example, equality before law is a principle laid out by the prophet [saw] himself. A woman of the influential tribe of bani Makhzoom was found guilty of stealing, and the closest person to the prophet, the young son Usama of the prophet's employee Zaid was sent to intercede on her behalf. The prophet loved Zaid as a son, and Usama as his own grandson. He had nominated young Usama for an important assignment when on deathbed, passing over many more seasoned Companions. Yet, despite that love, he laid the principle that even if the prophet's own daughter had been involved, she would also have received the same punishment. Throughout Muslim history, you will see many fine examples of that.

Equality before law is so enshrined in our psyche as an ideal that we once had realised in practice, that we resent our societies for having lost it, we resent our leaders for not implementing it, and we love the West for embracing this principle.

When we see the US or other Western countries compromising on this principle, we are baffled and feel betrayed, because we do know our societies have degenerated, but had come to see the West as an embodiment of that principle.

Take the case of the welfare state. The first welfare state in history was that of the second Caliph, who said that even if a dog dies on the banks of the river Euphrates due to hunger, I will be asked about it.

The principle for this had been laid down by the prophet [saw]. Loans in Islam are to be discharged, but the prophet said: if anyone of you dies leaving an estate, it is for his heirs (after paying the loans), but if he dies destitute (or his loans are greater than his assets), then the loans are for us (to pay). The state assumes the payment of such loans.

As opposed to dictatorships or the Divine right of Kings, the prophet said, something like: "everyone of you is a shepherd, and on the day of Judgmnent he will have to answer for his flock."

He similarly said, something like: "The ruler of people is actually their servant."

That is the principle which was actualy put in practice, and when we see or read of the lawmakers or the Prime Ministers doing what ordinary people do, using public transport, living in houses no better than the ordinary man, the husband helping the wife in household chores, this rings a bell with us because this is what our societies were like, before degeneration. I would have liked to post some of those stories, which will show what our ideal is, and how close the West is to our ideal, and where the West is far from that.

There are many examples, and many laws in the West ring a bell with us, because these are what Islamic societies had and should have, but because these societies, like the other third world countries, have developed a feudal/ tribalistic structure, having lost the Islamic values, they are far from Islam in many ways.

Islamic laws are based on common sense, and for the most part the West's laws and practice are mostly based upon this. For example the fundamental rule of the road was enunciated by the prophet [saw] - that you should not be an obstacle in someone's path. In fact we are asked to remove even pebbles from the path. Thus the laws on traffic make sense. If we try to understand this a little more deeply, it becomes a rule that we should be helpful to others, rather than being obstacles in the lives of others, provided what they are doing is legal and moral. An eminent principle, that helps society, and I have found in practice within Western societies, but the third world countries had lost it, mostly where feudalism prevailed.

Again for example, the fact that when someone says something in the West, there is trust that he has spoken the truth, this is Islamic, is one because Islam teaches Muslims to speak only the truth. The rule that an accused is innocent unless proven guilty, that is Islamic too.

And again the fact that contracts are to be recorded in writing, is an Islamic injunction.

We are taught to be civil and helpful. If we are not being so, it is because we have forgotten that particular command.

Muslims thinkers have thought long that the renaissance of Islam will take place in the West. This will happen due to internalisation of most Islamic values, which has already taken place here, NOT as a result of conquest by Islam. Islamic principles are already recognised and applied in the West, the only obstacle in the way of accepting Islam is ignorance.

Islam teaches tolerance. It tells us that all mankind is from the same father and mother, Adam and Eve. It tells us life is so valuable that the taking of one innocent life is like murdering the whole of humanity. It tells us that wastage and over-consumption are sins, which will have to be answered for.

Islam teaches respect for other species, and for the environment.

Of course, there are some areas where the West is away from Islamic principles. Europe in having lost or relegating religion has gone in a direction away from God, and that may now be a hurdle in the embracing of Islam by Europe.

Why we don't see much of this in practice in Muslim countries, is something that has occupied Muslim thinkers for a long time, and there have been many movements for rectification. Not all of them have been comprehensive, not all of them have blamed the West. Unfortunately again, instead of trying to understand these movements, the politicians and leaders with agendas, people with vested interests, from within and without, have sabotaged that process.

Why I say based on Islam? because Europe learnt from Islam and Muslims. Muslim societies fell into corruption and disarray, but Islam does not.

The Tatars are a classic example. They destroyed Muslim lands, and dispersed Muslim peoples, conquering their lands, committing atrocities even worse than the Nazis, but they eventually reverted to Islam, NOT as a result of conquest, but because the principles of Islam appealed to them.

There is one major difference from today's West, and that is to us all these good laws come from Allah and His prophet, so we want to establish these in the name of Allah.

OP posts:
Caligyulea · 30/12/2005 11:16

Yes, but in countries like Pakistan which are formally Muslim, the girl is "asked" knowing perfectly well that she'll be locked in her room and beaten every day until she comes out with the right answer.

Cases like these are always being reported.

fuzzywuzzy · 30/12/2005 11:34

That's nothing to do with Islam though, there are cases like these in India too, I remember reading about a Sikh girl who's family drugged her and almost succeeded in taking her out of the country to marry against her will.

My cousin was engaged for a couple of years and then decided the bloke wasn't for her, the engagement was duly broken, nobody was angry about it at all (better to decide now than after marriage), she's currently happily married to another man she agreed to marry.

My neighbour in India was desperate for her niece to marry her son, the niece has always refused, she even stayed with her aunt who tried to sweet talk her and pressurise her into marriage all to no avail. For some reason the girl decided that she did like her cousin after all just as she was about to leave India, she gave him her mobile and they used to talk to eachother incessantly for several months. She also changed her mind, and nobody has done anything about it, the engagement is offically over...not sure wehether she got her mobile back though.

Caligyulea · 30/12/2005 11:46

True that formally these cases have nothing to do with Islam (or Sikhism in the case you've mentioned), but Islam (or Sikhism, or whatever other oppressive religious code you want to choose) is used by the ignorant to back up this treatment of women. The religious elders in the village often sanction unislamic practices and allow the religion to be used as a justification for the oppression of women, even claiming that the Koran says this is how it must be, when the Koran says nothing of the sort.

I don't really feel it's a good enough response to say, well that's got nothing to do with Islam, any more than claiming that the Auto da Fe's carried out by loony Spanish catholics in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries had nothing to do with christianity. The religion is the primary powerful weapon in the hands of those who want to push through an oppressive agenda.

monkeytrousers · 30/12/2005 11:48

It does happen in the real world Cali, you're right - but I think there's a confusion (certainly in our culture) about the difference between arranged marriage and forced marriage.

On the whole though, there's an awful lot of confusion on this thread though about what happens in real life as opposed to what we think ought to happen.

Mooney, I was me who said that about Peachskin. The whole thing reminded me of a schoolyard, neither of you coming off too well IMHO, but for what it's worth I think you did pursue it a bit ferociously and have brought the baggage from that fight onto this thread too. I just don't think it's helpful. If it really was a schoolyard you'd both have come to an (uneasy perhaps) truce and avoided each other - maybe something about this being a virtual forum doesn't facilitate that.

fuzzywuzzy · 30/12/2005 11:56

Caligyulea; The answer that it is not Islam should be enough. A person lieing about what is in the Quran, is not Islamic, there are specific warnings in the Quran against just that kind of behaviour.

I can't defend (nor do I particularly want to), those who justify their tyranny by misusing (or just lieing about) religious tenets.

I do know that the educated people do not indulge in such abhorrent treatment of their daughters. I've never been a party to such treatment nor do I personally know of any girl who has.

(I'll be on and off MN I have to cook)

fuzzywuzzy · 30/12/2005 12:55

It just occurred to me (whilst making one hundred chapattis).

The Quran is written in a language that is still used today. The language is written in a very easy to understand way (Verses from the Quran are used to teach basic Arabic to non-Arabic speakers).
If somebody were to try and justify their actions by saying it is so written in the Quran, any Muslim could say right tell me which verse and then proceed to look it up. Keeping in mind every Muslim uses Arabic (ie the Quran) when praying.

(still cooking so may not be bakc to reply immediately)

uwila · 30/12/2005 14:22

So Fuzzywuzzy, if a woman marries a man, doesn't put into the contract that he can't marry another and then later decides she doesn't want him to marry a second, third, fourth wife does she have any legal grounds on which to prevent the subsequent marrriages?

moondog · 30/12/2005 14:29

Yes every Muslim uses Arabic but doesn't necessarily understand it!
People burst out laughing when I ask what the muezzin is chanting at prayer time.

Agree with the point made by Cal.Itis just not good enough to dismiss unpleasantries with a 'This is not Islamic' or PD's favourite 'This is a cultural not religious thing.'

One has to ask what eists in that religion which incites people to act in some appalling ways. I would ask the same questions of Catholics and contraception which is of course utterly bizarre and does women in the developing world no favourswhatsoever.

MT,Iam not as measured as you. I shoot from the hip as it were. How I came off when arguing with PS is irrelevant.
She was talking arrogant twaddle (and well you know it) so I responded with similar. Puerile perhaps but it certainly achieved what I wanted it to.

(Oven lovely now-like new.)

moondog · 30/12/2005 14:36

My muezzin example pertains to Turkey btw.

I understand the point abput the Koran being the word of God and therefore in its pure form in Arabic (althugh hang on,Arabic is a 'man'made language and therefore how can it be holy???)

However can't help wondering whether insistence on using only/mainly Arabic when reading the Koran is/was a deliberate effort to keep it under the control of those in power and therefore to be interpreted by them only?

Consider the impact on literacy and the printing press on the use and understanding of the Bible in Christendom. Missionaries would argue that one of their main jobsis to make the Word of God available to people in their own language.

Certainly when growing up in PNG (most linguistically diverse place in the world) we were surrounded by missionaries who would settle in a region,learn a language that noone outside the immediate community had ever learnt,devise a way of transcribing it and then produce a vernacular version of the New Testament.
It took about 10 years then they would move on somewhere else.

Blandmum · 30/12/2005 14:38

MT, I don't think that any of the people discussing this are confused about the difference between arranged marriages and forced ones. I know that I'm not.

And regarding PS she put her foot in it, realised she was looking like a bit of an idiot, and instead of saying so she tried to get out of it by saying 'I was only offensive about Wales and the Welsh to teach you what racism feels like' Please!? Oldest 'out' in the book, and didn't convince me one little bit.

I'd have respected her if she'd said, Sorry, I was an idiot' but she didn't have the guts to be honest. And the 'I'm so clever' bit got old really quickly.

JoolsToo · 30/12/2005 15:35

I'm loving this thread. TBH I know jacksh*t about other religions but I do know I hate the oppression and domination of women and am amazed by peoples blind acceptance of outdated values.

Do please continue ......

Caligyulea · 30/12/2005 15:37

Bloody good analogy between Latin and Arabic Moondog. The Christian reformation brought the bible to people in their own language - maybe mistranslated, maybe overloaded with cultural concepts of their own time - but still, in their own language, so they could question it and understand it on an equal level with someone more learned than them.

IMO insisting on Arabic as the language of Islam, plays a very similar role that Latin played pre-reformation in keeping most of the religion's followers largely in the dark about the nuances, inconsistencies, ideas etc. of the religion.

Blandmum · 30/12/2005 15:40

Translations of the Koran do exsis, but people are told that it is only 'perfect' in Arabic, IIRC.

Caligyulea · 30/12/2005 15:49

Ah, the perfect language.

It puts me in mind of the experiment James I did with 2 unfortunate children, whom he left in a room with toys, food etc. being brought to them, with commandments that they were not to be talked to, in order to find out what language an innocent human being would speak without being influenced by latter-day "imperfect" languages. Some said the boys would speak Greek, some Latin.

In the event of course, they spoke nothing.

Blandmum · 30/12/2005 15:51

Yes, there was a lot of excitement over 'wolf' children at that time.

fuzzywuzzy · 30/12/2005 17:33

Arabic can be learnt, it is a language that is being used to this day. I never said the language was holy, the revelation is from God, it was revealed in a language that all could understand. One can learn Arabic. I was taught what the words of the Muezzins call to prayer mean, I find it shocking that many in Turkey don't.

The original Bible if I am right (could be wrong obviously) was revealed in Aramaic, which is a language no longer used.

My copy of the Quran has the transliteration in Urdu under each line. I am fluent in Urdu so that's good enough for me. I also have an english copy of the Quran.
Of course the best language to learn the Quran is in Arabic, something will always get lost in translation.

I would like to point out here that I am not out to convert anyone, I am not out to start a fight. I understand that my beliefs are not yours and that your beliefs are not mine.

As for marriages in Islam it is against Islam to force a girl to marry against her will. I have given an example of non-Muslim woman forced into marriages and that was agreed that the religion had notihng to do with the action of the girls relatives.
Islam does not in anyway condone the practice. It is not Islamic, it never has been. The Islamic practice is to allow the boy and girl to meet and then for them both to give their consent.

Blandmum · 30/12/2005 17:43

No, I think that we all accept it isn;t part of Islam. But we all know that laws and rules can be misused.

the Americans would say that their laws ofn murder are fair, but we all know that they are skewed agains black people and the poor in general.

While Islam forbits co-ersion, there are women is situations where they cannot assert their rights. And there are men who will abuse this situation. In all places and in all faiths.

Caligyulea · 30/12/2005 17:49

Fuzzywuzzy I think everyone accepts that forced marriages are unislamic. Except those who practice them.

I'm not out to have a fight either (far too tired for that ) just trying to tease out how religion (Islam or otherwise) backs up and gives succour to oppressive cultural practices.

uwila · 30/12/2005 19:10

OI, MB... we all know the law in America are skewed against black people and the poor in general? What laws are you referring to?

Blandmum · 30/12/2005 19:19

The point I was making is that the law itself is utterly fair. If you kill someone and you are found guilty, you either go to prison or get the death penalty. However, statisticaly you are more likely to get the death penalty if you are black and you kill someone white than the other way round. And you are more likely to get the death penalty if you are poor than rich.

The law is totaly blameless, it is the practice of the law that can be swayed by society IYSWIM.

Blandmum · 30/12/2005 19:19

The point I was making is that the law itself is utterly fair. If you kill someone and you are found guilty, you either go to prison or get the death penalty. However, statisticaly you are more likely to get the death penalty if you are black and you kill someone white than the other way round. And you are more likely to get the death penalty if you are poor than rich.

The law is totaly blameless, it is the practice of the law that can be swayed by society IYSWIM.

Blandmum · 30/12/2005 19:21

sorry, posted twice and I wasn't clear in my original posting. Similarly Islamic law may ban forced marriages, but socity may 'forget' that bit in some parts of the world. The low may be fair, but the implemntation may not.

And for what it is worth the same is almost certainly true of law in the UK. I do know that you are more likely to bet a custodial sentence for a non violent crime if you are a woman that if you are a man, IYSWIM.

monkeytrousers · 30/12/2005 19:39

"The law is totaly blameless, it is the practice of the law that can be swayed by society IYSWIM."

Is this what you're saying about Islam then?

Blandmum · 30/12/2005 19:43

It is what I have said about specific laws in the West and in Islam. As a point of fact,, I personaly never agree with the death penalty, under any circumstances. Fuzzy and other have said that forced marriage is illegal under Islamic law, this I think would make that law a just and fair one. However in practice women are coeerced into forced marriages by some societies.

Likewise trying and punishing people with imprisonment for murder I think is a sensible thing to do. The law in the states does not discriminate against place people, but the practice of the law does. You are more liekley to get the death penalty if you are black than if you are white.

Thus the law may be just, but its practice may not be. And as I said this is true in the west and east

Blandmum · 30/12/2005 19:44

sorry, against black people