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What more could you wish for at Christmas? A visit from Tony Blair!

87 replies

Mistletoo · 22/12/2005 13:02

I'm sure some of the lads will be genuinely chuffed he's gone to visit.

For myself, ...............

OP posts:
Blandmum · 23/12/2005 09:49

RAM, stunning last paragraph, beautifully put. My old dad (a very devout Christian) once said to me, until the world is made of angels, we will still need armies. None of us want them, but until we don't need them I'm glad they are are.

And I send all my love to the familes of those separated over the xmas....I know that lots of MNetters fall into this catagory.

Normsnockers · 23/12/2005 10:34

Message withdrawn

peacedove · 23/12/2005 13:14

MB and RAM: I do agree that policing, intelligence and the armed forces are necessary.

What I said was that it isn't for more money that people should be prepared to kill, although the US has that tradition in the likes of "bounty hunters".

Let me try to explain again: These forces are needed, but there is a tendency to extend their reach, and to take away freedoms, hence the police and intelligence agencies have to be watched. However we have seen that the most dangerous species is politicians. So we have courts, and I said somewhere (in another thread) that the landmark decision of the House of Lords has salvaged the lawabiding face of this country.

I would have liked to see your input on that decision. I provided the link, although it is very long.

What I have found is that despite having gotten rid of the Empire ourselves, our politicians continue to play power games with the lives of other people, towing in with the mighty US of A. And our armed forces are put in those countries to control those nations. That is what I object to.

The black and white in Iraq was quite visible from the start. We are, as you have said, no longer in WW-II, so we should be learning from the past.

Do you have any idea why the First Gulf War was fought?

Norm: "Peacedove this "nut" had a title as a leader of a group of muslims somewhere in the country. Do they routinely allow themselves to be led/represented by nuts who get airtime to justify the actions of other nuts?"

I suspect you are referring to the "alMuhajiroun" or one of its manifestations. Anyone can gather a bunch of loonies, and be declared as their leader. You will find a lot of fringe loony groups to which people pay no attention. The al-Muhajiroun was propped up as an Islamic group by the Media. Muslims by and large ignored it as a small group with little following.

"The "nuts" as you put it will always use the Quran's "valid cause" get out clause to justify their crimes against humanity."

The valid cause is quite well explained in the Quran and the Sunnah, and the mainstream Muslims have had no problem identifying the valid cause, but there are indeed extremist groups.

"I am however with MB/RAM providing in Peacedove's world all faiths are able to worship god in their own way. I also suspect that in Peacedove's world I would have other more frivolous rights (but still rights) curtailed somewhat.

From what I've found though, allowing all religions to happily co-exist with equal rights is not a mainstay of the islamic faith in an area where it is the dominant religion. In such areas it is often common for a religion based "justice" system to operate as "the state" and religion are not separate."

Perhaps you would care to brush up your history, and may I humbly suggest reading from unbiased sources.

"P.S. Doesn't peacedove slip up occasionally and let us know that they are male when sometimes they also state they have a dh."

Has he really? where did he say he had a dh? You are imagining things.

"The world should not be full of people who pretend to be someone they are not in order to try and find a platform for voicing their opinions and influencing others."

True, but PD hasn't done that. It is TB and GBW who are guilty.

"Highly contentious just for Xmas but have been up all night with vomiting ds and now we have trouble at the other end so am not in best of humours except with ds who needs cuddles."

I hope your ds has recovered. That explains how you have become misinformed. Rest assured that PD has never hidden his maleness. If you think he has, let us have some evidence. Fair?

Blandmum · 23/12/2005 13:22

Peacedove, I know that gulf war 1 was found by a large co-elition which contained a large number of Muslim countries, two of which gave dh medals. And we also have a Kuwaiti flag upstairs given to dh, by a guy who was weeping tears of gratitude that his family was free of Saddam's madmen. Whatever other reasons there were, and I'm not stupid, illeducated or naive, for that man the reasons were freedom.

Or do you feel that Kuwait was realy part of Iraq, and the local's views on their nationality were imaterial?

peacedove · 23/12/2005 13:42

mb, I do not doubt your dh's integrity and bravery.

mb, you are a chemist and a teacher. Have you tried reading history from an angle other than the official Western one?

Don't be fooled by coalitions involving the third world. The leaders often do not reflect the aspirations of people, for they were manipulated.

Have you read the book: "Confessions of an Economic Hitman".

The Gulf War I was fought by Bush Senior with the primary aim of acquiring bases in Saudi Arabia. The story of April Giuesppe, the US ambassador to Iraq during that time, would be highly enlightening, except that the US administration put a gag on her.

But go even earlier than that, to the breakup of the Ottoman Empire, and to what was promised to the Arabs, what was given to them, and the games played by the two blocs.

In terms of theology I am with the Kuwaitis and the Saudis, but in politics I think the enlightened West has tried to keep kings and dictators in power. Somewhat hypocritical for democracies, don't you think?

JESSnutsRoastinOnAnOpenFire · 23/12/2005 13:49

Wellllllllllll.. in response to the thread title only.. I would in fact love such a present for Christmas!!!

SJ x

tamula · 23/12/2005 14:00

peacedove,

I am completely with you. Everything you have said on this thread, your eloquence and knowledge.

Hear hear.

homemama · 23/12/2005 14:02

Why would anyone be interested in the actual thread title, SJ!

I've emailed my brother sending him a link to this thread.

MB, my brother says it's precisely because of GW1 that they can't leave until the job is done. He says that the local officials that they are working with tell horror stories of what happened to those who helped the British/Americans during GW1 when we withdrew and left them at the mercy of Saddam.

RudolphsAuntMabel · 23/12/2005 14:06

Peacedove - I, as a human being, consider the greatest gift that my parents gave to me was the gift of empathy. The ability to climb into someone else's skin and see the world through their eyes. This has enabled me to look at war and religion through eyes that are not my own. As I've said I would love your world, to live somewhere where there is peace and harmony would be so amazing that we all know it'll never come about. There will always be people who will not tolerate others to have a different view point. Sadly these people have a tendancy to claim this is in the name of religion. Are you religious, do you have a faith? If yes, then why? I don't. The main reason for which being I could not ever give myself to something that is such a major cause of war and killing.

MB's DH and the partners and husbands of many other MNER's are brave servicemen who joined the forces for reasons of their own. I personally would do everything I could to prevent my DS's joining up and it would break my heart if they did. But, and it's an enormous but, should another nation ever threaten ours again I will be eternally grateful for those people who are willing to lay their lives on the line to defend my children.

I agree that the Iraq fiasco is just that. Bush and oil maybe? Who will ever know for sure? The thing is, think of the civilians in Iraq who will suffer so much more if our forces pull out now and just leave them to it. They have to stay until things are on a level footing don't they?

I for one am will be sending my best wishes and safe thoughts to all of the servicemen, wherever they are in the world, who are away from their families this Christmas and thank them for trying in their way to make the world a better place to live.

MB is your DH home this Christmas?

monkeynutsroastingonanopenfire · 23/12/2005 14:08

Erm, what is this about? Can someone sum up the argument please? Aunt Mable, wouldn?t pursuing a peaceful solution ? diplomacy ? non-military action in situations where such things are possible actually be better in protecting your children. If everyone is prepared to ?kill anyone? then we?re all dead, aren?t we? Or am I just not seeing it? (Both Gulf wars were avoidable in this way I may add)

MB the casual way you accept civilian casualties I think belies a failure to even engage with the issue on any real emotional or logical level. It?s not good enough just to say ?these things happen? as you and Munzsdh say ? like I asked on another thread ? would it be good enough for you were it your own loved ones??

The world may not be as Peacedove hopes it to be, but that doesn?t mean we can?t challenge it to be better. Human nature definitely has a will to power, but it also encompasses a will to love, respect and cherish ? otherwise known as empathy. It?s not something the army have much use for, for obviously reasons ? but that doesn?t mean to say the rest of us should neglect it.

munz · 23/12/2005 14:18

ahy in responce to the title I'd hate a visit from the bloke - hate him, for DH I don't suppose he'd be too impressed - unless he brought a crete of largers. althou when DH was there last year they had 2 page 3 modles visiting them - needless to say they were a big moral booster - they also had some other c list cleb as well.

RudolphsAuntMabel · 23/12/2005 14:19

monkeynuts - the British assoc. of Counsellors and Psychotherapists lists empathy as: the ability to communicate understanding of another person's experience from that person's perspective.

To show you understand it, you don't have to respect it, accept it or like it.

We would all like conflicts to be settled without force wouldn't we? But sadly the world just doesn't work like that does it. My point was however, should someone be threatening our nation I would be thankful for the armed forces to protect us, wouldn't you? Would you rather we get rid of the forces and leave ourselves wide open to attack? Have a think about it? That's what would happen.

Blandmum · 23/12/2005 17:31

Monkey nut, please tell me one place where I 'Casualy accept' civilian casualties?

As as for it being one of my family, I have faced the possibility of my dh dying more than once, so I am closer to the horrid reality of war than most on this thread.

In the first five years of my marriage I lost five friends. Trust me, I am the last to cry havoc etc etc.

I think you have mistaken me, and my views for someone and something else.

monkeynutsroastingonanopenfire · 23/12/2005 17:44

Hmm, don't you think that rather misses the point. A sociopath may well understand the concept of empathy yet the fact of them being unable to connect to the concept past a logical understanding of the word is what makes them what they are. And there are lots of sociopaths in the armed forces.

And as the past two gulf wars have proved, no, we all don't want conflicts to be settled without force. The situations in both cases could very well have been settled without force but negotiation wasn't on the US agenda. It's not that civilian casualties happen, it's that they happen needlessly, and in most cases are expected. The reason it doesn't matter is because it happens to 'them' not 'us'. The sad fact of the matter is however that these dichotomies don't actually exist. They're just people, parents, children, with exactly the same fears and emotions as us. What really separates us is that these people in the average day face death and the fact that their, or their children's' lives don't matter and all we face is a long cue in Tesco's and that's enough to bring some of us to tears with the stress of it. That we can't apparently see the idiocy of such comparisons is proof enough that we all fail in our empathic skills.

And as for the question about whether the excuse of 'it just happens' being a good enough excuse if it happened to our loved ones (which no one seems to want to tackle) the answer is with us already with the 7/7 enquiry and it is a resounding no.

Your final point is a completely different argument however and it's not one that I'm disagreeing with and I don't have to think about it - I've read my Hobbes and understand the paradox of 'Leviathan' - it's a very instructive text.

Mistletoo · 23/12/2005 17:46

blimey homemama is my thread following Tone and taking a trip abroad?

OP posts:
Blandmum · 23/12/2005 17:47

MN, I have accepted several times when it could have 'just happened' to my dh, but you have not answered my question. When have I casually acceptied civilian casualties?

monkeynutsroastingonanopenfire · 23/12/2005 17:47

I have MB, sorry. My mistake. {smile] Someone said it though - it's directed to them.

Blandmum · 23/12/2005 17:50

then please direct it to them, and not to me.

As I said, I have a far greater immediate undertanding of the awfulness of this, from direct expeience.

monkeynutsroastingonanopenfire · 23/12/2005 17:50

leviathon - bloody spellcheck!

monkeynutsroastingonanopenfire · 23/12/2005 17:51

It's only one part of the discussion though MB. There are so many thrreads on this thread it's hard to keep up.

Blandmum · 23/12/2005 17:52

and it is queue not cue A nerve from me I know

monkeynutsroastingonanopenfire · 23/12/2005 17:52

..and you're opinion would be nice too..

monkeynutsroastingonanopenfire · 23/12/2005 17:52
Grin
Blandmum · 23/12/2005 17:53

yes, but I don't like being misquoted, particularly in that way, infering that I was uninterested in civilian casualties

monkeynutsroastingonanopenfire · 23/12/2005 17:55

I know, it's a very emotive subject - especially when you have loved ones directly involved.