To ask pro-choice MNers to email your MPs? <this is not a request to vote on anything>

[EricNorthmansMistressOfPotions]

There is an article here about the proposed amendments to the health and social care bill which will force women to undergo 'independent' counselling before being allowed to choose to terminate a pregnancy. The assumption is that BPAS and the like have a financial investment in encouraging women to terminate and as such their counselling is biased. The stated goal is to reduce the number of terminations per year by forcing women to delay between seeking and receiving termination, and having to undergo additional counselling (political bias unknown, though easily guessed at) prior to the termination. ND hopes that woman will change their minds during this enforced extended waiting period.

If you think this is a shit idea you can email your MP by clicking this link

This is not a request to vote on anything at all

chazs that amendment does not provide for independent advice at all. It simply removes anyone who also provides abortions from the picture. There is nothing there to stop vehement pro-life people doing it (which is what nadine is after, so it's not surprising).

SardineQueen agreed, you could read it in a negative way as

"anyone who provides abortion services cannot be trusted to give independent advice"

Whereas pro-life groups on the other hand can

I am fortunate that I have never found myself in a position where I would have to contemplate an abortion. I know I would find it a very difficult decision and it would never be an option I would take lightly. I work on the assumption that the vast majority of women who choose to have an abortion start from a similar place and that they have made that choice based on serious consideration. I will stand up for their right to make decisions about their own bodies and their own lives. It might be that faced with the same circumstances one of us would chose to have an abortion and one of us wouldn't - in my view both decisions are equally valid and equally correct.

I am genuinely shocked by that definition of "independent" and that a document like that could even go near parliament TBH. It's either deliberate (in which case I would hope that parliament would not go near it) or is sloppily written (in which case I would hope that parliament would not go near it).

FGS

Just to say, I've had a fairly good response from my MP who has categorically stated he will oppose the proposals in parliament.

Excellent Edustudent. I am comiling an email to mine right now.

I have read this thread with interest and feel I must comment on a couple of points raised.

Firstly, I think the support from BPAS is perfectly adequate. The vast majority of women they see are there because they have already made up their minds what they want to do about their unwanted pregnancy, the remaining ones who are not 100% sure are given support to explore all options. The is no pressure to abort. To those who believe differently, how would you know if you've not been there yourself?

Additional, forced councilling is simply not necessary and the delay would only serve to cause distress.

Secondly, this non issue about what the embyo should be called. I have heard pro choicers refer to it as a blob, bundle of cells etc. It is patronising to imply that a grown woman does not understand exactly what being pregnant means or what is growing inside of her. Of course she does! But when a baby is wanted there is an emotional attachment and excitement for this pregnancy, as desire to know everything about their developing 'baby'. But when a pregnancy is desperately unwanted there is no emotional connection to the contents of their uterus, so no desire to use emotive language about it.

What's emotive about 'foetus'? Embryo/bundle of cells/blob is just inaccurate in many of the cases when it is used. It just makes it sound like they don't know what they are talking about even if they do.

Hi, I haven't read any further than the 1st page. I followed the link and emailed my MP - John Hemming - and this is the reply I got:

Abortion providers, however, do clearly have a conflict of interest.

Thats it, that one line. Should I reply? And say what?

Slightly confused by his reply to be honest.

Point out that they are non-profit and are there due to the NHS being overburdened. They do not gain anything (other than their costs back) from performing abortions, they also provide other services (eg. counselling, contraception advice)

If he bothered to look into what one of the most talked about family planning clinics actually offered he'd see that.
Here's the list from Marie Stopes
Abortion
Contraception
Pregnancy testing
Well Woman screening
Cervical smear tests
Sexually transmitted infection testing
Female sterilisation
Company health screening
Vasectomy advice
Contraception advice
Sexually transmitted infection (STI) screening
Well Man health screening
Company health screening

Actually embryo is perfectly accurate to describe an early stage pregnancy. And by emotive descriptions I was obviously meaning words such as 'baby'.

I do not understand your nitpickiness about this particular issue!

I suppose it depends on whether the doctors performing the abortions are paid for them on contract (regardless of how many they perform) or as an additional service - the way GPs would be paid for certain things as additional services eg. vaccines/out of hours care or whatever... If it's the latter you can see how there could potentially be a conflict of interest.

But the doctors aren't holding women down to do these abortions. The women have to sign consent. And, for good reason, the doctors themselves have very little contact with the patient beforeand as far as I'm aware. The pre procedure counselling and care is normally done by a nurse or similar.

I have emailed my MP and would like to sign the e-petition - does anyone have a link? Thought I saw it up thread but its disappeared.

Thank you.

Shakirasma - you are taking my posts out of context then. I was commenting on the use of those phrases when it was not appropriate suggesting that the women who were them were not aware that the foetus was no longer an embryo/bundle of cells.Why would they use those terms otherwise when there is the accurate and non-emotive term 'foetus' available? No one suggested they use the word 'baby'.

bubble we don't agree on this issue, but I have enjoyed the debate so far. But suggesting the doctors who perform abortions on behalf of organisations like Marie Stopes are on some kind of commission and therefore have a vested interest in providing more is quite frankly beyond the pale. They have signed up to the Hippocratic oath, just like every other doctor in the country.

who were using* them

It's just words! It does not mean these women do not understand, it means they are not interested. It is not relevant except in terms of what sort of procedure they need.

I was amazed on becoming pregnant just how long it is before it's considered a foetus. It's an embryo much longer than I thought.

Is he Stewie? Get him over here!

I was just asking Wilson. AFAIK GPs get paid 'commission' (to use your term) for additional services (such as out of hours work, maternity services) alongside their basic salary so I was wondering if the doctors who are performing abortions have that 'service' included as part of their contract with the NHS or if it is an 'additional service' in that sense.

Done, and thanks for the link.

No, you weren't just asking, you were trying to prove a link between the financial aspects of hoe abortion services are provided and your perceived bias in the way women who seek abortions are counselled.

However, AFAIK - GPs don't provide abortions. In Scotland it tends to be a hospital procedure provided on maternity wards by surgeons so I don't imagine any money is changing hands there. In England I believe more services are provided through charities like Marie Stopes, but I don't know if the actual procedures are carried out in specialist clinics or in general hospital theatres - however, as discussed several times on this thread, the charities use the NHS money to pay their way and don't make profits. I can't imagine it is a particularly profitable buisness TBH.

Privately, well that's another story and one I don't have any experience of so can't comment but as the user of the service is paying directly I can see that there may be a conflict in that case. Which is ironic as many anti-abortion campaigners centre their arguement on 'taxpayers money' being used to fund the service.

Shakira - you don't know that as a fact. You are presuming that is the case. As I said before, even I was surprised by how much I could see at my 12 week scan. It's a bit silly to be calling it a 'blob/bundle of cells' at that stage. I can understand how some people would maybe get confused by embryo/foetus at different stages but the other terms really don't suggest that the woman is making an informed decision and surely it would be worth making sure that she was.