To ask pro-choice MNers to email your MPs? <this is not a request to vote on anything>

[EricNorthmansMistressOfPotions]

There is an article here about the proposed amendments to the health and social care bill which will force women to undergo 'independent' counselling before being allowed to choose to terminate a pregnancy. The assumption is that BPAS and the like have a financial investment in encouraging women to terminate and as such their counselling is biased. The stated goal is to reduce the number of terminations per year by forcing women to delay between seeking and receiving termination, and having to undergo additional counselling (political bias unknown, though easily guessed at) prior to the termination. ND hopes that woman will change their minds during this enforced extended waiting period.

If you think this is a shit idea you can email your MP by clicking this link

This is not a request to vote on anything at all

"If you read my other posts you will see that I said from the start that I didn't think that 'independent' counselling should be influenced from either side. "

But Bumbly the counselling already IS independent - Family Planning Clinics are not in the business of pushing abortions any more than an heptology department is in the business of pushing liver transplants - they are staffed by doctors and health professionals desperately doing their best with limited resources.

So - some questions about this additional "independent counselling"

Q Where is the money for additional counselling going to come from?
A Outside sources we presume - since family planning and sexual health clinics are already funding the counselling currently provided and the NHS isn't exactly awash with cash.

Q Who would be likely to be interested in providing this outside funding?
A I think we can guess unfortunately.

Q Do we have any assurances with this legislation that the counselling will be truly independent?
A No. At least I've seen nothing explaining how independence will be ensured and quantified.

At the very least, MPs are being asked to sign up to a very worrying, untested and unexplained idea.

That already happens bumbleymummy, you'll be relieved to hear. I was fully informed of every detail and asked if I was sure countless times.

Actually sardine, I wouldn't class myself as 'thick' or uneducated' but I was still surprised by how much I could see in my scan at only 12 weeks. I'm not saying that they don't know there's a baby in there - just that they might be considering it a bundle of cells for a bit longer than it actually is.

The Norn Iron aspect of this has already had an airing but I'm willing to lobby my MP on behalf of GB.
Consider it done

ooo my other point is that we don't have enough therapy to go near the number of people requiring mental health provision in this country let alone this. Who exactly will pay for it?
Not all counsellors or therapists are at all comfortable working in this arena so it may be difficult to provide "independent" counselling

What Eric said. One of the things that has come out of this fantastically measured and thought-provoking thread has been this:

Pro-lifers think pro-choice based counselling involves talking about 'blobs' and 'cells'
Pro-choicers think pro-life based conselling involves talking about 'ickle heartbeats' and 'pink babygros'.

(Yes, I exaggerate...) BUT there is a definite need for free, fast and independant counselling, available to all women in every area. But back to the OP - ND's amendment won't provide that, so IMO it should be opposed.

Bubble (again) they might be considering it a bundle of cells for a bit longer than it actually is

We are all just bundles of cells. The point is whether the particular bundle of cells in your body can survive independently. The law of the country states that point is at 24 weeks. How far the baby has developed up until that point is completely meaningless and is an attempt to guilt women into continuing their pregnancies. Emotive language is on the same spectrum as waving babyclothes in my book, I'm afraid.

Fair enough michelle but are you sure thats the case everywhere? From what earlier posters were saying about the Radio programme yesterday there were women phoning in saying that they felt they were let down and rushed through the system.

Wilson - are we blobs and embryos too? I pointed out that some people use inaccurate terminology and gave a few examples. I haven't said that all pro-choicers use that terminology in their counselling.

wrt that phrase 'bundle of cells' - that is the exact phrase the revolting anti-abortion film we were shown in school used, in the mouth of a 'dumb teen' who needed educating. Not that I'm implying you've been looking at pro-life propaganda here...

And as for compelling people go get counselling - Bumbleymummy, you don't seem to be grasping that most people are not against counselling per se, just the forced aspect of it - perhaps my (non-abortion-related) example will clarify?

The evening of the day the Bishopsgate bomb went off in 1993, my younger brother disappeared. I had been on my way in to work in the NatWest Tower, slightly delayed because I had to pick up my new glasses. I was turned back halfway in to Liverpool Street because of a "security alert" - these were v. common back then and were generally caused by someone forgetting their shopping on a tube train, so I thought nothing of it til I rang work to let them know I was delayed, to get no answer. Almost all of my colleagues were trapped in that building until 6pm that evening. It utterly traumatised one of my managers and he needed a lot of counselling thereafter to even be able to look up in the City and catch a glimpse of the building. He suddenly became a huge fan of counselling and therapy and arranged group sessions for all the staff who'd been involved.

4 weeks later, my brother's body turned up floating in the docks. He'd been murdered. I requested some time off to be with my family, he refused to give it me unless I agreed to go for some counselling because he felt 'it would do me good'. Knowing what I know now, I'd have told him to stick it and got HR on his arse, but I was fairly naive and went along, feeling somewhat fraudulent and very resentful that I was having to do this.

It was probably the worst experience of my life. I had 3 sessions before I walked out and each made me feel worse than the last - DH was becoming seriously worried about me! The "therapist" was utterly useless, convinced of her own righteousness and made the feelings i was already carrying around about my brother 100 times worse. I walked out in the end when she told me that my 'resistance' to therapy was probably down to my mother not having breastfed me!

Now. Thank you if you've managed to read that mini-essay. Imagine that happening to someone all over the place from the shock of an unwanted pregnancy, forced to go and sit in a room with someone who wants them to 'explore' their feelings about it all. I can't think of much worse, tbh.

The information you say 'should' be given is already given at BPAS etc. I cannot imagine what value making an already traumatised woman go through additional 'counselling' will have, other than to attempt to delay her beyond the legal dates for abortion and thus make it impossible for it to happen.

I hope you get it now. :(

But these changes, which will mean a longer wait to actually have a termination, will obviously mean that, yes, it will be more than a bundle of cells by the time you actually have the procedure. As someone said upthread, we already have wait times which mean that you can wait 10 weeks for the actual abortion, even if you've discovered you're pregnant very early on and immediately tried to organise one. That's the reality already, you can wish all you like that it was quicker but it isnt, and it will be longer if these terrible people are permitted to do this.

I feel like I say this on virtually every thread relating to policies which affect women primarily this year, but fucking tories. They hate women and dont pretend otherwise.

As for Nadine Dorries, I cannot believe that someone who grew up in Anfield (an absolute shithole of deprivation) can seek to limit the opportunities of women who may not have much scope to control their own lives. She is the worst kind of self serving parasite.

bubblymummy when women and girls find out they are pregnant, what they think about is whether they want a baby. They consider their lives with a baby in it, with all their circumstances, and see whether it is something that they want, is something that is possible, or not.

This "bundle of cells" stuff is a bit of a red herring. It really does assume that women don't know what being pregnant is.

That's my first hand experience of bpas. I wasn't rushed at all. Quite the opposite, it took six weeks to actually happen. Even on the day I had a scan to determine how far along I was, a discussion with a very kind lady about whether I was sure, two nurse/midwives check I was ok as I went on the ward and the doctor made sure I was alright when I went in. I had a good six hours on the day to change my mind.

Honestly, I would be suspicious of the truthfulness of anonymous callers to a radio programme saying they'd had a different experience.

lovecat how awful. The whole thing.

I also agree with the idea that counselling can do more harm than good. A family member works in a hospital where they have had to deal sometimes with big train crashes. Counselling for these type of things is offered a a matter of course, and she has always questioned it. In fact the medical profession is now coming around to the idea that steaming in with counselling may not always be the best approach, it may make things much worse.

lovecat, so sorry to hear about your brother.

I did say that I wasn't opposed to compulsory counselling depending on the format it took. Please don't think that I am suggesting that a woman be forced to listen to some self-righteous therapist lecturing them and presenting them with baby grows - I have said a few times that I am not suggesting that. I think that your story does confirm the concerns that some people have raised about the quality of the counselling that would be offered.

WRT the 'bundle of cells' comment. It pops up a lot on the abortion debate threads on MN and usually in the context of 'why is a bundle of cells more important than a woman's choice' in a pro-choicer's argument so not from a 'pro-life propaganda' source.

Here is the link to the proposed amendments
www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmbills/132/amend/pbc1323103p.1833.html

I am very uncomfortable about the definition of "independent" as

?(1A)

In this section, information, advice and counselling is independent where

it is provided by either?

(i) a private body that does not itself provide for the
termination of pregnancies; or

(ii) a statutory body.?.?.

Clearly independent does not equal impartial. Does it also mean I could set up a counselling service with no knowledge or experience.

Note: the amendments amend the Health Service Act 2006 and would impose a new duty on the Sec of State

s3 of HS Act 2006 starts link to Act
"(1)The Secretary of State must provide throughout England, to such extent as he considers necessary to meet all reasonable requirements?"

and the proposed amendment would add the following additional duty

?(g) independent information, advice and couselling services
for women requesting termination of pregnancy to the
extent that the consortium considers they will choose to
use them.?.?.

But of course independent is not neutral or impartial as the amendment above demonstrates.

Forgive the technical posting but I don't like relying on newspaper articles if the underlying source material is available.

p.s. does anyone want to email ND and ask her what a "couselling" service is in her first amendment!

Sorry lovecat, that's awful. It's so bullying and aggressive to force counselling on someone.

Spoons, I'm glad if it helped you. Have an un-MNetty ((hug)), I'm sorry you had to go through that too.

michelle, I'm going to say that I think you are being a bit unfair and slightly naive yourself if you think that everyone has the same experience as you did. How cruel to question the honesty of someone who phones up to share their story because it is different to yours. Would you like it if someone questioned your story and doubted you? You are just as anonymous to us as they are.

Indeed you didn't bubble which is why I didn't refer to you in my post. You have however managed to avoid answering the question I did put to you directly at 12:36.

I'm not anonymous to myself. I don't doubt people have had bad experiences. I would just be surprised at so many of them choosing to call in to a radio show about it. Pro-lifers are known for their underhanded methods. They really don't help themselves sometimes. I would be equally wary of someone commenting on here with no posting history.

It isn't that anyone is forcing abortions on people who don't want or need them but people are trying to stop them from happening.
So sadly it makes me doubt the authenticity of any blatantly negative and emotional abortion story.

Sorry Wilson, I missed it!

Yes, I think that some people may think twice about aborting a baby if they see a heartbeat/limbs/movement etc that they weren't expecting particularly if they are slightly unsure about having the abortion in the first place.

I really don't think that their knowledge of foetal development would be a factor in determining how adequate their parenting skills are tbh :)