To ask pro-choice MNers to email your MPs? <this is not a request to vote on anything>

[EricNorthmansMistressOfPotions]

There is an article here about the proposed amendments to the health and social care bill which will force women to undergo 'independent' counselling before being allowed to choose to terminate a pregnancy. The assumption is that BPAS and the like have a financial investment in encouraging women to terminate and as such their counselling is biased. The stated goal is to reduce the number of terminations per year by forcing women to delay between seeking and receiving termination, and having to undergo additional counselling (political bias unknown, though easily guessed at) prior to the termination. ND hopes that woman will change their minds during this enforced extended waiting period.

If you think this is a shit idea you can email your MP by clicking this link

This is not a request to vote on anything at all

FlyingSpaghettiMonster's post really resonates with me. There are women who take no responsibility for their bodies and who clock up abortions as their preferred method. For those posters who will say, "What about the men?". Well, what about them? They can't get pregnant and as a woman, I would make it my own business to protect my body irrespective of the measures a man would use for protection.

It's those women who abort multiple times who would benefit from counselling in my view. I'm not talking about any other circumstances, just those women who choose to be passive and deal with the outcome by abortion. It makes a mockery of the system.

Ok, I will probably be jumped on for this but I've been thinking about it a lot and I actually think compulsory 'counselling' may not be a bad idea depending on what the counselling actually involved.

I have said before that I think people should know what abortion actually involves at the different stages and I have been attacked for suggesting that women are stupid. I am not saying that at all but there are always lots of posters on pro-choice/pro-life debate threads referring to embryos/bundles of cells and blobs at much later stages of development and asking about how the abortions are carried out at different points so it's obvious that some people actually don't know too much about it or are choosing to ignore it because the truth makes them uncomfortable.

While I understand that it could be difficult to make the decision if you know that the foetus is actually more than a bundle of cells and what the procedure involves, is it really any better to make an uninformed decision and potentially risk a bigger fallout from it in the future? Surely if someone can't face the reality of what they are doing and still feel comfortable with their decision then an abortion may not be the right option for them.

The problem is, because it is such an emotive subject, even presenting the facts about the foetus' development stage and the procedure itself could be considered as pushing 'pro-life propaganda' when really, how else can you ensure that a woman is making an informed choice? You can't just assume that every woman knows those things. Yes, of course many will and will probably feel a bit patronised by this idea but what about those who don't? Is it worth allowing them to make an uninformed decision that they may really regret for the sake of avoiding what could be a fairly straightforward counselling session that covers all the options? I mean if you are convinced you are making a fully informed decision that is the right one for you then it shouldn't really bother you. I'm not suggesting that anyone has to justify anything during the counselling session by the way - just that all the facts and options are given and there is the opportunity to discuss anything further away from any pressures that the woman may feel in the outside world.

Wow. I emailed my MP this morning and signed the petition, he has already responded saying:

Agree with you entirely. Will vote against the amendments being tabled by Nadine Dorries and Frank Field if they are pushed to a vote. Deciding whether or not to have a termination is a difficult enough choice for any woman without introducing further state-funded obstructions or questioning the integrity of the doctor of a woman's own choosing.

I am also concerned that reports in yesterday's Sunday Telegraph and today's Guardian indicate the Government may be preparing to signal a review of abortion law in order to prevent a vote taking place and to placate Conservative backbenchers who see tightening abortion laws as a priority.

I hope this answer is helpful.

Gotta love GeekCool's MP!

Bumbley Counselling is a great idea, however mandatory counselling that could delay when the woman can get an abortion (Either to a point where the abortion becomes more dangerous, or beyond when she can get an abortion anyway) is wrong.

Early abortions are always going to be preferable to late ones (in terms of lesser evils) due to associated health risks. So something that forces more women to have late term abortions isn't really the best move.

"people having abortions know what they are doing"

How do you know that? You are just assuming that they do.

I didn't mention anything about showing them pictures of aborted foetuses either so stop being extremist.

I agree that if counselling was going to be put in place then it would need to be offered quickly so as not to create further delays.

I agree that if counselling was going to be put in place then it would need to be offered quickly so as not to create further delays.

But there is no money for quick waiting lists. General waiting lists are getting longer.
Dorries' wording of 60,000 abortions being 'prevented' is what is causing concern for me. She goes out of her way to attack women. Surely preventing abortions is more about promoting contraception, safe sex and effective sex education at school and home.

These are my personal reasons for opposing this

• The fact that there is even a hint of making the counselling mandatory, waiting lists and potential bias could mean many women being forced to carry a baby to term against their will.
• The fact it has to be "independent" is iffy as

a) it assumes family planning clinics are "for profit" organisations, when they aren't. b) NHS is overstretched, especially in counselling, and could not handle the need for counselling is such a short timescale c) The organisations who can afford to provide counselling are mainly pro-life, which means that counselling is likely to be biased. Which is obviously not going to be helpful.

Thing is bumbley counselling does fuck all if the person doesn't want to engage. It's pointless. Most women seeking ToP are older (25+) and quite capable of doing the research themselves about stages of pregnancy. Making women look at images of foetuses at the same stage of development only has value if you belive a) women are too ignorant to seek that information themselves and b) termination is morally questionable. If you believe that termination is morally acceptable then it is irrelevant what stage of development the foetus is at.

It'a also quite clear (given the advisory position that Life have been given) that pro-life organisations will be allowed to provide this 'impartial' counselling.

I think bumbleymummy that, while well meaning, you are incredible naieve. It matters diddly squat to a woman with an unwanted pregnancy what stage of development the foetus is. Though to be fair, having your GP refuse to refer you for an NHS termination because he's pro life, does make the stage of foetal development somewhat of a pressing issue as you franticlly save up to go private.

All the propaganda "education" in the world makes no difference if your starting point is the belief that adult women are somehow incapable of making decisions about their own bodies and their own destiny for themselves.

Actually, I'm interested to know what bumbley thinks women need to know before having an abortion.

AFAIC the list is

• what the procedure involves
• any risks
• what the alternatives are (just in case it is a panicked decision)

You do have all the facts explained to you bumbleymummy. There already is a massive delay to ensure this. I had to travel specifically over 100 miles to discuss every detail of what was going to happen. Then I had to travel another 100 miles to actually have the termination where it was again explained to me in detail. I was asked if I was sure this was what I wanted many times. A very kind old lady saw me just before I went in and asked me if I was ok and did I still want to go ahead. I said yes and she again explained it to me and told me to be prepared because it was going to be very scary and painful.

I can't even imagine that conversation with her waving baby clothes at me. Thankfully I was trusted to have made the decision for good reasons and not because I was a heartless monster.

Call me naive all you like but I don't think it can be called an 'informed decision' if the woman is under the impression that all she is aborting is a 'bundle of cells' when she is actually aborting at a much later stage of development. If she doesn't care about the foetus and it is unwanted then it shouldn't make any difference to her but it's a bit crap if someone thinks they are aborting a bundle of cells at 12 weeks and then finds out when she goes for a 12 week scan with a subsequent 'wanted' pregnancy that it was actually more than that. Yes, many women who have had abortions already have children but there are many who haven't as well. I know I was quite surprised by how much I could see at my first 12 week scan. I wouldn't like to have had that surprise with a history of an abortion that I thought was a 'bundle of cells'.

I haven't mentioned waving baby clothes either...sigh.

I understand the point you're making, bumbleymummy. I think that this is always going to be a polarised debate - either for or against and nothing in between. Just one of those things unfortunately.

Was it on this thread that I posted that women have had babies (by CS) after having hysterectomies (ovaries not removed, obv)? Are we all aware that 5/6 of fertilised eggs do not make it to full term anyway? Do these facts mean nothing in this debate? We can get pregnant in the most unlikely circumstances no matter how 'careful' we are and it is unusual for fertilised eggs to survive; they don't claim their 'right to life' very often.

But that's the whole point of this discussion bumbleymummy. Women have been shown baby clothes and been given incorrect information on abortion by the proposed counsellors. They have been wrongly told that they are more likely to get cancer and that they will be given the foetus to dispose of themselves.

Women already are told how far along they are in the pregnancy, all the facts about the type of termination, it's confirmed that they are sure several times, they have two doctors sign that the procedure can go ahead. They are not pushed into it at all. At all.

You are very much missing the point. This isn't about whether abortion is right or wrong. It's about whether women should be calmly and kindly told the facts or be subjected to a forced emotional interview and shown baby clothes.

bubble there are always lots of posters ... referring to embryos/bundles of cells and blobs

Indeed there are, and it isn't language I find particularly helpful. However, I very much doubt you will find HCP's / counsellors / people actually involved in terminations using this kind of language. They are there to be factual, to explain what is happening and what the procedure will entail, as Michelle stated in her post.

Do you really think, out of interest, that a person seeking a termination will go 'OMG I didn't realise the embryo had developed (whatever) by now, I better keep it then'? And if so, would that person necessarily be a good parent? Actually curious on this point...

I know that I was under huge pressure from my babies father to have an abortion. I had emotional blackmail - "friends don't have babies together, you are ruining my life" to "you'll be a useless mother" as well as having all the practical issues being waved around as a reason to not continue with the pregnancy. If he could have afforded it I would have been booked into a private clinic. As it was I had to see two doctors and in fact went for an abortion twice before I realised I didn't want one. Any easier and I'm afraid I might of given in to "common sense" and aborted.
As I said before not one thing has turned out the way anyone imagined it and my life is fantastic. I think a lot of women could be swayed by the "life plan" that a baby might get in the way of. In fact the truth is no one knows do they?

I'm not agreeing with or advising any of those things michelle. If you read my other posts you will see that I said from the start that I didn't think that 'independent' counselling should be influenced from either side. My post from 11.29 today was just saying that I am not necessarily opposed to the idea of compulsory counselling depending on what it involved because I do think that certain information should be discussed with the woman prior to the abortion to ensure that she is making an informed decision rather than just assuming that she is.

LyingWitch - I'm glad it makes sense to someone! :)

I don't think it's like that at all Lyingwitch. Actually I believe that independent counselling should be available quickly and for free to all women who seek ToP if they wish it. Unfortunately there are not the resources to make this available through the NHS so it will be provided by 'independent' (read - faith based) charities who will be only too happy to preach anti-choice propaganda at captive audiences.

On this "making sure women and girls understand that when they are pregnant there is a baby growing in there" point... If anyone genuinely thinks that females of our species don't understand this fairly basic biological fact...

In the US there are proposals to force women who want abortions to have an ultrasound and to look at the screen and have all the anatomical features, heart beating, hands forming etc etc pointed out to them. This is quite clearly a proposal with an obvious aim: To make women feel so guilty that they change their mind, no matter what their reasons were for wanting an abortion in teh first place. And if they don't change their mind to try and ensure that the whole thing is as traumatic and guilt inducing as possible - punishment, basically.

I do not like the way these type of processes are claimed to be simple information giving exercises to educate all of these females who are too pig-shit thick to understand what pregnancy is. They are tactics to try and persuade women out of having abortions that they want, and to try to make them feel as crap as poss if they go ahead.

Well done GeekCool's MP!