An interesting post on FB in relation to riots

[Ivortheengine8]

Found this as the status of a couple of friends and people I knew a long time ago at school around the early 1990's

'RIP Broken Britain.. You went soft on discipline!.. You went soft on immigration!You went soft on crime.. Parents were told.. 'No you can't smack the kids'....Teachers were prevented from chastising kids in schools.. The police couldn't clip a troublemaker round the ear.. Kids had rights blah blah blah.. Well done Britain..You shall reap what you sow.. We have lost a whole generation!! '

Our school certainly wasn't the best in the area and it had a bit of a bad name back then so I find it interesting how my generation of average kids feel about this and I agree.

Way too many excuses are being made for the rioters, in my opinion it is sheer lawlessness and lack of respect for anything or anyone which I think starts at home.

Stopping teachers hitting children was a very good thing (and being older I did get the odd whack on the hand in primary school).

I have no idea why stopping that seemed to coincide with teachers generally stopping restraining children, giving them detention, setting them lines, making them scrub clean messes, run round the playground 10 times, etc. It seems to be a school culture thing rather than the law stopping them, as my BIL is a teacher in a rough school and makes kids stay late if they've been mucking about and while he was told he wasn't allowed to make them clean the toilets with a toothbrush or otherwise, he is allowed to get them to sandpaper graffiti off the desks.

I also have no idea why children who are incapable of reading or writing are sent to secondary school to inevitably flounder - I worked on a youth activity scheme a while back and was shocked how many of my kids, aged 11, could not fill in a form saying 'Name, Address, Date of Birth', but had to still stay with their age group.
In Germany, anyone who doesn't get decent grades in year 6 and any subsequent year has to stay down a year, with increasing amounts of extra help, and this must help both motivate children and ensure they can generally keep up with the class. Having to stay down a year at least once had happened to about 20% of the kids in my exchange school (a grammar equivalent)

notcitrus, it is the same in France and the the level of education is much higher than here in the UK. If you don't pass the year you hve to go back and redo it. It is a bit contraversial having different ages in different classes but I overall it works and it gives an incentive to work hard to pass. No one wants to be 16 in a class of 13 year olds!

I went to university (Cardiff) with people who didn't even know what a verb or a noun was! You wouldn't get past year 3 not knowing tht abroad.

Yes SC of course I am with mixed race child and black husband - that does make perfect sense.
I dont think it has anything to do with racism. Like I said earlier, Our country benefits greatly from all sorts of people from all over the world, the issue is to what extent the country can cope with the influx. That is observation, not racism!

My husband is British born in Birmingham and has a good job where we live in London. Just because someone mentions immigration does not make them racist.

Quite a bold claim you are making to me there SC which has actually really pissed me off. Hve never been accused of being a racist before and I am not so closed minded as to call others racist when I hvent got my facts straight or just because they mention a word. This is precisely the kind of thing that gets people irritated.

Hey, I'll go one better, I am an immigrant but I do think it's divisive for a society when measures aren't put in place to control it and when you have a situation where immigrants who are hungry for money to send back home can undercut the local competition to such an extent that it becomes impossible for locals to gain work that can better their lives. Some immigrants are working solidly round the clock at cut-rate prices etc and sending this money back to their countries of origin, and fair dues to them in some respects, I absolutely admire their work ethic and desire to improve their own lives, but it does create problems. Many immigrants have so much more to gain from this money than locals in estates in London who could work just as hard but would gain much less comparatively speaking (no matter how many hours you do on a building site or in a takeaway in London, you are unlikely to afford a better home at the end of it). Does this mean that I think that all immigrants are scum who should be kicked out? Well, that would be a bit silly of me.. but I can see that it is out of control and that more steps should be taken to ensure that locals do not feel that immigrants have better life chances them, solely for the reason that it creates rifts in society which can quickly flare up and become dangerous.

I don't believe that immigrants have come in and taken all the jobs (even if I am one and I have a job) but I do think that some people take the proverbial and that the government allows this. I have had my fees paid to do several courses in the NHS, this makes me feel indebted to this country and I really wanted to give back by spending at least as long working in the NHS as I had studying at its expense.. but there were plenty on my course who came, had their fees funded for these qualifications and buggered back off home without ever putting one day's work back into the system. This is a scandalous waste of taxpayer's money.

The NHS would be on it's knees without foreign Dr's, nurses and others who work for it. I don't think many people at all object to people who come here and are willing to give a bit and take away. It is the people who come here, are not supposed to be here,who can't support themselves and end up living off tax payer's money whilst at the same time intentionally causing tensions within the society.
I think that all the parents of those who were killed because of these riots have been extremely dignified and a perfect example.

If people come into the country without a passport for example do you know that they can't be sent home?
People re not stupid and they will take advantage of that fact.
I have known several people here in the UK using illegal passports with the wrong information on sponging off people without the slightest care.
I have known a so called 'pastor' with a false passport claiming money off his congregation, many of whom are a lot poorer.

'Discipline is not violence Davda, it is a necessity and if people people chose to do that differently to you that does not make them idiots - I find your posts pretty ignorant without any constructive argument, you are just putting everyone in the same basket.'

I didn't say that though, I said the folk posting this status on FB are being idiots, because they are seeking to ally physical discipline (in their words, smacking, or a clip round the ear) with the emergence of due courtesy and respect in children.

That to me is idiotic.

That was a fantastic post 9-5. Spot on IMHO.

For what it's worth, I think the opening post is bullshit for reasons others have already stated here. The minute I saw "immigration" lumped in with everything else, then saying the problem was also down to no longer being able to use physical violence against children, I knew it was crap.

• Reason number 49 that I am not on Facebook - inane comments imposed by "friends."

When are people going to take responsibility for their own children?
As a parent it is your duty to parent your own child properly.
I get so annoyed when parents allow their kids to run riot over them. Ffs you are in charge, get a flaming grip.

All this namby pamby does nobody, least of all a child, any good at all.

I remember as a child being told this: "All children respect having clear boundaries." How true this is.

We are too afraid to say to parents you are not doing that correctly. Perhaps the answer lies in compulsory parenting classes, similar to the compulsory sessions myself and dh had to attend beforte we got married. The vicar gave us some very sound advice which has served us well and we are still married 17 years later.

It is time we had licensing to be able to have children. It's ridiculous that we strictly vet people for adoption (which doesn't involve new people being brought into the world) but let anyone breed, which just brings more people into the world to consume dwindling resources.

So what criteria would you set then BonnieLassie, and how would you account for changes in family circumstances?

And if you aren't setting them, who should?

I'm 35, and I can't remember a single time at school, in the late 80's/early 90's, when a pupil told a teacher to "Fuck off" to their face.

Now, it's widespread, and happens at schools up and down the country. The Facebook update the OP put up is correct in many ways. We are reaping what we have sown, and we certainly have lost a generation (or a big part of one).

This is a link to a well-known extract from the science fiction novel, "Starship Troopers", written by Robert Heinlein in 1956 (or thereabouts).

It's well worth a read, even if it does offend the left wing sensibilities of some of us :o)

www.magma.ca/~yeti/troopers.html

This passage is quite prophetic...

"And that was the soft spot which destroyed what was in many ways an admirable culture. The junior hoodlums who roamed their streets were symptoms of a greater sickness; their citizens (all of them counted as such) glorified their mythology of 'rights' ... and lost track of their duties. No nation, so constituted, can endure."

"So what criteria would you set then BonnieLassie, and how would you account for changes in family circumstances?

And if you aren't setting them, who should?"
Same criteria as we currently have for adoption.

Good post 9-5. I think it's spot on about why, say many Eastern Europeans are prepared to work extremely hard here for a few years. The money they earn in Britain is worth far more in their home countries than it is here. I was in a museum cafe in central London today and made a point of listening to the accents of all the staff. There were 15, all Eastern European. Surely some of those jobs should be going to young British people to get them started on the employment ladder? I am genuinely alarmed at where we are heading if our non-academic young people are increasingly unable to ever find work open to them. I've heard the argument that employers prefer Eastern Europeans because they're hard-working and undemanding so without incentives for employing a proportion of British citizens I think the future of our young people is pretty bleak.

I agree Janni, but you have no idea how many British citizens are even applying for these jobs. I worked as a HCA in a hospital and every single one of the cleaners/catering staff were immigrants, the conclusion I came to was that they were the only people applying for the jobs, rather than some conspiracy.

Dp works at Heathrow and again, 90% of the people he works with are immigrants, the job description he applied for was cleaning planes, although that isn't what he does. I don't see any conspiracy to not employ British citizens, rather that they aren't applying for the shit work jobs.

I don't really think of it as a conspiracy not to employ British citizens, more that we're getting to the point where it's becoming generally accepted that our service jobs will be filled by non-Brits. Who knows if that leads to young Brits not even bothering to apply, thinking the job is not relevant to them? It used to be that people accepted a spell at the bottom of the career ladder, on the way to better things. I wonder whether our more vulnerable youngsters have absorbed such drivel all their lives through reality TV / celeb magazines etc about becoming rich and famous by any means that they simply don't realise you might have to start off in humdrum job and work your way up.

It annoys me when people harp on about having to 'earn respect'. in reference to teachers.

When I was at school in the late 60s /70s we were as disrespectful to teachers as we felt we could get away with. We were more 'respectful', or that could read scared of, teachers after one or all had been belted (long leather strap). And this would be for talking or not handing in work.

In a classroom where it's 30 to 1 only one of the 30 needs to be 'disrespectful' , or a little so-and-so, and the class can be mayhem.

Ok, some teachers are better than others but anyone who chooses to get up in front of a crowd of bolshy teenagers day after day deserves a medal imo.

Sadly the teachers can no longer belt. Kids putting on makeup, sending txts, reading mobile phones -- what? The kids probably think they have won, sadly ,they will be life's serious losers.