An interesting post on FB in relation to riots

[Ivortheengine8]

Found this as the status of a couple of friends and people I knew a long time ago at school around the early 1990's

'RIP Broken Britain.. You went soft on discipline!.. You went soft on immigration!You went soft on crime.. Parents were told.. 'No you can't smack the kids'....Teachers were prevented from chastising kids in schools.. The police couldn't clip a troublemaker round the ear.. Kids had rights blah blah blah.. Well done Britain..You shall reap what you sow.. We have lost a whole generation!! '

Our school certainly wasn't the best in the area and it had a bit of a bad name back then so I find it interesting how my generation of average kids feel about this and I agree.

Way too many excuses are being made for the rioters, in my opinion it is sheer lawlessness and lack of respect for anything or anyone which I think starts at home.

Respect is a two-way relationship - how can anyone respect someone else who physically hurts them?

I'd say it's bollox.

Twinkly, I do think that is part of it. Kids know when you are not in control and as a new teacher that can be a challenge.

it's total rot!

I'm in that age group and don't subscribe to it at all.

My school used to slipper/ruler kids' hands and it was painful, humiliating, degrading and wrong.

I grew up in a London Borough where there were race riots in the 80s and there had already been mass immigration for decades there. The treatment of those immigrants was awful and I'm very glad it's changed.

I don't think the UK is soft on crime and I firmly believe in rehabilitation. I'm very proud that our human rights record is better than many other countries and that we strive to afford people basic decency. It sets a far better example than torture or bent policing.

There are things wrong with the UK and laws that could be made better and some that should be annulled or dropped altogether, but this is not a broken country.

I think those posting that status and those that agree with it are ignorant and part of the rise of the right in Europe that worries me far more than the current riots. What perturbs me the most is that the riots encourage the kind of thinking that gives the far-right a field day.

At our most vulnerable, people seek authority, but in asking for more laws and restrictions, we deny ourselves decency, a voice and the opportunity to police ourselves and our morals as individuals.

I think they'd learn more from RiotCleanUp and OperationCupofTea.

Kids can sniff panic and desperation in a teacher. I have seen it happen. The teacher needs to get their act together ( as I did) move to a different school ( as I did) or get a different job if it is happening.

....and older teachers who simply can't do their jobs....
But I agree, there are plenty of 'good' teachers out there who really have a grip and are able to engage the children properly without any kind of punishment. However it might be a different story in Larger cities!

What are teh complicated issues you ask. It is hard to know where to start.

What people are doing is awful and criminal, I am not excusing it, but we need to understand how to stop it from happening again. There are clearly large numbers of people in society who see little reason to play by the rules. If I think of me parents, I didn't like their rules, but I obeyed them because with them came emotional and material support and the membership of a family. Parents who are just authoritarians without the matching love and support rarely have kids who continue to support them and those parents exercise control only as long as they are able to physically do so. Our society is the same, we are saying 'work hard, don't thieve, pay taxes' etc to people from whom we are simultaneously withdrawing support, in whose futures we have little interest and who are widely derided as chavs and scum.

What has changed over the last 25 years is not the creation of a 'culture of entitlement'. What has changed is a shrinking of opportunities for many poorer people. Three decades ago someone working in a low paid job had the realistic chance of owning there own home, or at least having a decent council let that would enable them to create a secure home life. Lower paid jobs were more secure, with pensions and proper benefits. Now all too often they are casualised and, in real terms, much lower paid. At the same time there has been a huge transfer of wealth to the better off in society and a celebration of the material wealth and lifestyle those people enjoy. The advertising industry spends billions each year teaching us to yearn after the material and not much else.

Rather than having a society where we acknowledge that not everybody can be rich and therefore we try to make it possible for those who are relatively worse off to still have the important things in life (a secure home, secure employment, fair wages, opportunities and education for their kids), we tell people that the important thing is to get rich and buy goods and if you don't you are a failure and your problems are your own creation.

I could go on but I doubt anyone is still reading.

Ivor, you still haven't answered the previous poster who asked what immigration has to do with the riots

Think the other points you make have some validity. I am a bit surprised though that there is no mention of growing social inequality as an underlying cause of disillusionment with our leaders and economic system.

Asparaguses I read it! And, you're completely right.

Capitalism and materialism are certainly key culprits globally and locally.

I read it, Asparaguses and agree with every word

I've seen this on FB too. I think it's mostly pretty accurate but to say we have lost a whole generation is fucking awful. It's easy to concentrate at the moment on the kids who are bad misled but what about the ones who aren't

I agree with picnicbasketcase - selfishness permeates every level of society, and is incredibly destructive ... It feeds into itself in a vicious cycle - in that being successful and achieving as you define it is seen as more important than being part of a society. I am guilty of it too, even if I haven't been rioting. It's more important to fix that than bring back heavy-handed punishment. But have do you remake community and a sense of responsibility? Me? I hard-pressedto get through a day of full time work and parenting, and barely have enough time for DH, let alone wider family, friends and beyond. Therein is a problem, I think

Wow how great to be able to say you have no problem instilling discipline in your students ... I have seen some great teachers completely overwhelmed by the sheer lack of respect from some kids and parents who came in following their attempts at discipline. The parent smacked the teacher in the face.
But hey yes i am ignorant

Flatbread, I am married to a Nigerian whose family has done extremely well over here in the UK as have many many other decent people from other countries. I am proud of what he and others have achieved - many of them from nothing. They are all professionals who hve made a purpose for being here.

But.....the UK's immigration laws are also laughable in many respects nd I am afraid too many people have cottoned onto this. My husband and many other people I know from many other countries agree with me.

Britin does not have a problem with immigration as such but it is the way it is conducted and the fact tht our country is simply too small to take it all on. We need immigrants, they are vluable to our society if they have something to bring and take away.

Does that represent a whole generation LillyLoo?

You can be a great teacher and be in the wrong school. Everyone has isolated incidents.

I did not say I have never had a problem.

Asparaguses, agree with your post. I read this commentary in Moon of Alabama's site, and think it captures what is wrong in our society:

"Cameron's Moral Speech

This is from David Cameron's speech today. It required only slight modifications in the third graph to be perfect:

'Its all too clear that we have a big problem with gangs in our country. For too long there has been a lack of focus and a complete lack of respect shown by these groups of thugs.
I am clear that they are in no way representative of the vast majority of young people in our country who despise them frankly as much as the rest of us do. But there are pockets of our society that are not just broken, but frankly sick.

When we see [banksters and hedge fund managers as young as 25 and 30] looting and laughing, when we see the disgusting sight of [an old couple] with people pretending to help them while they are robbing them [through fraudulent mortgages], it is clear there are things that are badly wrong in our society.

For me the root cause of this mindless selfishness is the same thing I have spoken about for years: it is a complete lack of responsibility in parts of our society.

People allowed to feel that the world owes them something, that their rights outweigh their responsibilities and that their actions do not have consequences. Well they do have consequences.

We need to have a clearer code of values and standards that we expect people to live by and stronger penalties if they cross the line. Restoring a stronger sense of responsibility across our society in every town in every street in ever estate is something I am determined to do.'

Unfortunately Cameron would never make such a speech with the banksters and hedgies in mind. He does not understand that the looters in the streets of London, Manchester and Birmingham are copycats when they are taking what they do not own.

For years the neo-liberals have praised consumption, the selfishness of Ayn Rand and have not a shown the tiniest bit of qualm when robbing first from the people and now from whole nations.

With such amoral examples praised and held up to the highest honors by Cameron and his media friends, how can one blame the youth for following them?"

No Twinkly and fair enough a whole generation is not a true reflection , but it is true for a lot of inner city schools. It isn't down to the teacher , the police officer etc
Policing ourselves lead to 3 men being mown down and killed last night

Twinkly you can't all move to different schools , someone needs to teach these children surely ?

I taught in an inner city school and saw discipline as my responsibility. I forged my whole career in difficult schools until I got too old and tired to give the job the energy it needed.

I would like to see teachers in difficult schools paid more money so they attract the best teachers and keep them. In every difficult school I have worked in there has been a core of staff that maintain discipline. I am in total awe and respect of them and wish I could have done it for longer.

Twinkly totally agree , and i totally admire anyone who can do that job. Schools are struggling with discipline in some schools , regardless of the quality of teacher. It starts way before they even start school imo

Yes, it seems like an impossible job. I live in London and the way I hear 'some' young children speaking,shouting and screaming at their parents or even people they don't know is pretty alarming. I know I couldn't do it and I managed to teach in Holloway :)