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Depraved or deprived: What lies behind these riots, and why aren't they happening in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland?

602 replies

Solopower · 10/08/2011 09:22

I've been reading the threads on the riots and I wondered if we needed one on the causes.

People's ideas seem to range from thinking the rioters are just opportunistic criminals to socially and culturally disadvantaged youngsters.

But why isn't there any rioting in Scotland, for example, where there are pockets of extreme social deprivation?

Zoe Williams' article on the psychology of looting is worth reading, imo:
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/09/uk-riots-psychology-of-looting?CMP=twt_gu

OP posts:
ellisbell · 12/08/2011 08:52

it was also probably warm in Southampton, Exeter and Plymouth - and none of those had riots. Nottingham had an attack on a police station. To get behind the reasons I think you'd need to look not only at feelings of powerlessness and disillusion with authority, which exist all over the country in young people, but to styles of policing in different areas.

MUM2BLESS · 12/08/2011 09:42

I think what has happened is very very sad, what ever the reason for it taking place. What a shame lives have been lost.

Could it be that the rioters are described as british rather than english because their parents may be from countries outside the uk. I would describe myself as black british but not as english.

There is no excuse for rioting or looting. None whatsoever !!!!!

What hope has some of those young people jobwise etc. This seems like young people who have no sense of tomorrow.

Many of these rioters come from families that have worked hard and honest to get what they have today. Some have rebelled againist all authority!!

merrymouse · 12/08/2011 09:55

"it was also probably warm in Southampton, Exeter and Plymouth"

Calming influence of the sea?

seb1 · 12/08/2011 10:03

Probably been mentioned before but government looking at Strathclyde Police for guidance.

psmachmo · 12/08/2011 10:23

So no consequences then?

"Unease at lax punishments being doled out by Magistrates Courts? in London was raised today by top policeman Stephen Kavanagh, the deputy assistant commissioner.

?Some of us have been disappointed by some of the early sentences we have seen, especially those officers who have been on the front line facing the violence and disorder,? said Mr Kavanagh.

?That has been personally raised by me and others, and the commissioner I know has also raised it, so we will move through those issues and I am confident we will get the support of the courts.?

A number of people convicted of their role during the worst public disorder in living memory, have been allowed to walk out of courts with conditional discharges from magistrates.

But concerns about convicts being given only slaps-on-the-wrists by magistrates for bringing terror and destruction to London, are already under discussion at a senior level, said Mr Kavanagh."

www.london24.com/news/crime/london_riots_mounting_worry_at_soft_sentences_by_courts_1_991514

AitchTwoOh · 12/08/2011 11:31

good for oborne. it was pretty sickening watching Cammo yesteday...

midnightexpress · 12/08/2011 11:35

Yes indeed. Did you read Russell Brand in the Guardian? It was quite good, especially the second half of the piece, and once I managed to get myself past the hideous misuse of the word 'lay' in paragraph 1.

I was reminded of the Callaghan cartoon (pic of nun with class of tots, observing drunk lying on pavement): 'Now class, is that man laying or lying in the gutter?'

manicmij · 12/08/2011 11:50

Throughout the ages there has always been the "have and the have nots" so nothing new on the deprivation front. This is the second wave of the generations without boundaries both parental and judicial. Parents cannot be bothered to put up with hassle of dealing with the kick-back when a child is told NO, and the judicial system is basically powerless now with all the soft sentencing they are forced to impose on youngsters. Not that long ago, anyone hitting a police officer was dealt with severely, now the police are given shields to basically allow assaults on them to take place. Human Rights are a joke, if I was police officer I know what I would be claiming, my rights!

sakura · 12/08/2011 11:53

those are graphs compliled by the BBC

scottishmummy · 12/08/2011 11:55

so what?what point will you cut and paste to support your theory men are lawless thugs.what socialsciencetastic dichotomy will you apply

and what of the females involved, i suppose they are subjugated and male hegemony made them riot.

scottishmummy · 12/08/2011 12:01

95% arrested isnt same as 95% participants male.or 95% males are rioters
how do you explain the females involved?

AitchTwoOh · 12/08/2011 12:01

but you can't just say 'so what?' to the fact that 95% of the rioters were male, surely? that is a huge majority. there are no ethnic background stats on there, though, i wonder why that is? (actually wonder, not snidey i-am-making-a-comment wondering). you'd think if the BBC is asking 'who are the rioters?' it would come up.

AitchTwoOh · 12/08/2011 12:04

actually, forget that, you can say 'so what?' to the entire graph set... it was only based on 56 people... Hmm what a load of rubbish. will be interesting to see what it pans out like, though.

scottishmummy · 12/08/2011 12:05

just another see ah telt ye,men=gits
and here is the "proof"
lame and predictable in style of oh the things men do
hardly deep.v predicatable

midnightexpress · 12/08/2011 12:29

Anyone seen this? Would be nice if the British media showed a few of the more eloquent local young people, instead of just the riot grrls.

skrumle · 12/08/2011 12:34

www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/aug/11/uk-riots-magistrates-court-list

16 women out of 240 - is that more meaningful?

AitchTwoOh · 12/08/2011 12:39

sure is. although i will be more interested when more people are processed. i do think the gender discussion is huge and worth having.

NormanTebbit · 12/08/2011 12:45

Ellisbell -thankyou for that link, he has put into word what my dull brain was struggling to clarify.
Did you see QT last night? people were angry it was clear they are pissed off with politics and police.

I hope we call them to account for this state of affairs.

midnightexpress · 12/08/2011 12:46

I think it's more interesting that any women were involved.

scottishmummy · 12/08/2011 12:51

why.women have always been involved in criminality
dont all carry pomanders and breast feed all day like goddesses.
deviancy is genderless
but the treatment and explanation of female deviancy is interesting. usually from more of a shocked women do that premise

unfortunately,people do murder,riot,commit offences
men and women
women are in gangs too

NormanTebbit · 12/08/2011 12:52

Aitch I admire your tenacious and doughty defence of the Scottish weather. But it washot in London; sticky windows open at night, restless hot - 30 degrees on Wednesday last week. It did actually rain but was still hot. It's noticeably cooler up here even on 'hot' days.

midnightexpress · 12/08/2011 12:54

Deviancy is genderless, but violence isn't (clearly). And IMO, it's interesting that young women are more violent than they used to be. There was no such thing as girl gangs when I was young, but as you say, there is now. Man gangs have always been around.

AitchTwoOh · 12/08/2011 13:00

jeez louise, norm... give it a rest.

what i was objecting to was your insistence that the RAIN up here will have stopped people rioting. because while people were rioting down south IT WASN'T RAINING up here. i'm not sure why that is so difficult for you to take in, tbh. the rain in scotland wasn't a factor in there not being rioting, because there wasn't any rain. that's all.