Depraved or deprived: What lies behind these riots, and why aren't they happening in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland?

[Solopower]

I've been reading the threads on the riots and I wondered if we needed one on the causes.

People's ideas seem to range from thinking the rioters are just opportunistic criminals to socially and culturally disadvantaged youngsters.

But why isn't there any rioting in Scotland, for example, where there are pockets of extreme social deprivation?

Zoe Williams' article on the psychology of looting is worth reading, imo:
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/09/uk-riots-psychology-of-looting?CMP=twt_gu

The rioters didn't become the people they are in the previous 18 months the tories have been in power. A large number of them couldn't tell you which party was in power. They might mention the government as a motivating excuse, but they're far more likely to mention the police.

Surely though, lemondifficult, the way that people vote in Scotland is a reflection of their more socialist beliefs? The Scots never vote Tory because they don't believe in the more individualistic attitudes of conservatives? The 'no such thing as society' (and yes, yes, she says she was quoted out of context, but still) just doesn't work up here. So while people may not be protesting against this government specifically, the fact that voters south of the border vote for a certain kind of government (and have riots) while people up here vote for a very different kind of government and don't have riots may be connected?

scots.. dont take on so.. seriously.. have to say that amongst all my english friends of all creeds and colour we all envy you.. no tuition fees.. and the welsh have free prescriptions..

lucky lucky you...

god in heaven it must be a tribute to your respectibve governments careful money spending!!!

sorry how much over budget was the scottish parliament.. was it half a million or a million.. escapes me!!!!

anyway take a joke.. concentratre on the main issue.. working classes under attack from criminals... as i said before my parents have been attacked on many occasions by vile thugs and so have i and my neighbours, all creeds and colours... 3 brave men lost their lives last night up the road from us in handsworth.. protecting thier property and neighbourhood... hope these criminals are brought to justice and shown no mercy..

why the fuck should we put up with this obnoxious shit from you, thebody?

Newsnight Scotland is discussing this issue right now, those of us in God's Own Country.

Joolyjoolyjoo

Scotland doesn't have any problems with football hooliganism? I think in that particular arena English and Scottish "fans" have equal claims to fame at home and abroad. Celtic and Rangers do not exactly have a history of glorious friendship between them!

Also, if quite a few folks in the Tory area of Aberdeen decided to start their own roaming looting then I'd say they'd get away. I've personally been attacked by one of the gangs of kids that like to wander around the city off their heads of an evening (Aberdeen is rather famous for the amount of cocaine users), I don't think they had any better moral compasses or problems against vandalism than any of the ones down south.

It just shows how easily chaos and crime ensure without enough presence and fear of law and order.

IMO, individuals have to take responsibility for committing crimes, no matter how many others are doing the same. Many people clearly see the riots as an excuse to steal or be violent.

No, I don't accept it's because Scotland don't vote for the Tories. Peckham, Hackney, and nearly all the areas that have seen rioting are left-wing boroughs, and the young people have grown up with spending their formative years under Labour government.

London has a population of nearly 8 million. Glasgow has a population of 560,000. The one thing about about the London riots and elsewhere was that this was about numbers on each side. The tipping point is different. This, plus, the lack of hot summer nights, is far more of a factor.

And again, Glasgow is hardly above violence and disorder. It just didn't get involved this time.

thebody - maybe you should move to Scotland and all your whinging issues would be sorted- but then again maybe you shouldn't...

Just ignore thebody. Deliberate shit-stirring on their part.

i think it could as easily kick off in Scotland actually as there are plenty of vile wee neds who would love the opportunity. As someone mentioned earlier though many of these thugs don't like to move too far from their little domain where they feel safe and can be the big man there and they are usually small skinny, weedy looking runts who might be tackled more by the general community. I also think that Scotland is enjoying this moment of superiority over those down south and don't want to ruin this chance, much in the same way their football fans abroad have a much better rep then the English fans. Saying all that, I wouldn't be surprised if something had kicked off - the weather probably helps as well.

i always remember seeing this documentary on prisons, and the officers were saying that they could only maintain order with the permission of the prisoners, that if the prisoners kicked off there was nothng they could do but retreat... kind of interesting wrt this, i think. it feels a bit like the curtain's been drawn back and the Great Oz is just some guy... what's to stop it all happening again?

Lifeis- of course we have the horrible sectarian crap going on up here, but when Scottish fans (The Tartan Army, as opposed to Celtic/ Rangers eejits) are abroad, they usually behave quite well, and are proud of their reputation for our good-natured attitude to always losing! It's not so much hooliganism we have the problem with as sectarianism, which is horrendous in itself, not saying Scotland is any kind of paragon of virtue as far as that kind of thing is concerned!

I've actually only been to Aberdeen once, so most of my experience is limited to the Central belt. Here, anyway, I know that I would always intervene on behalf of a neighbour or friend, and have done on several occasions, and been backed up by others. Sad to hear that this wouldn't happen where you are

You're right, Lemon, about them having grown up under Labour. Maybe they don't feel represented by any government?

But in any case, that would only be an indirect cause. No-one was saying that as they carried their TVs away.

does anyone worry about all this, what with the recession hitting so many countries that seemed stable, rich and in control? What if the whole economy just keeps going down and there is no fix or up, always wondered what it took to spark off one of these end of the world/ anarchy/ society breaking down type situations (obviously not equating these piddling riots) - but what if if all had to start sometime. Not meaning to be depressing but speaking to husband the other day on the possibility of what if it all can't be just fixed - sort of scary thought. just wondered if anyone else ever scared themselves with stuff like this or am i just a loon - be kind if i am!

You're not a loon (or alone ). I have a new "zombie" plan that involves escaping with my family in a boat and either finding a deserted island or staying at sea. the plan is coming along...

I was just trying to work out why the rioting hasn't happened in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland - yet - when there are pockets of social deprivation and lawlessness all over the UK.

I think the sense of community idea, plus the identity thing could be near to the mark.

sounds like a plan! Let me know if you need any help?

i also think that in glasgow, certainly, precisely because of the football, the police have the skills to be all over this like a rash. so even if there was a skirmish, they would be flattened.

This link, posted by Wigglybeezer:
thetvcollective.org/2011/08/looting-for-an-identity-by-marcus-ryder/

Begonyabampot, yes, it's worrying. But similar things have happened before (Depression of 1919 and the Wall St Crash etc) and been resolved. In fact, doesn't boom and bust happen all the time, in cycles?

On fb earlier:

No trouble reported in Wales overnight. This is Wales. If it doesnt involve sheep or rugby, people aren't interested.

'it feels a bit like the curtain's been drawn back and the Great Oz is just some guy'

Aitch, that's it exactly! 'Great Oz' is just the number of police that can be on the streets vs. the number of gangs/looters that can outflank them. If there's no internal moral code to guide these people then it all comes down to a matter of muscle. Our society is a thin veneer of civilisation, and the bubbling resentment could come to the surface at any point - and, thanks to the new ability to organise itself, win.

Guess it's just been a busy time what with the earthquakes in NZ and Japan (especially Japan, a superpower brought to it's knees and almost nuclear meltdown), the recession and all these uprisings in the Middle East (still unclear if the new powers there will be any better or different from the old). Guess we always felt safe and removed form all these things - makes you realise that it's all so transient and can't be taken for granted. Riiiight - no more depressing rants - quite a happy chappy really!

I agree that the Tartan Army has improved it's behaviour abroad immensely in recent years. I just thought you seemed to be suggesting that football hooliganism was just an English phenomenon rather than the "proud" British tradition it has been.

I don't mean to say that Aberdeen does not have many great things going for it and it is a great city but there have been many negatives. Another friend and one of his mates got punched in the face returning home on evening. A girl was attacked in broad daylight at a busy time of day at the entrance of Seaton Park (there was blood on the pavement) and the park itself is a famous no go area at night. My brother was also attacked by some loons (this time in Inverness at a busy time of day) no member of the public came to his assistance but luckily he had training in martial arts - his attacker did not . A close friend and I have had a man, obviously drugged up to eyeballs, run after to us on the way to the train station again in the day with plenty of other people around - no one intervened. And another friend accidental left her purse on the bus, a kindly member of the public did indeed show community spirit by handing it in to the bus driver, though only after taking the "finders reward" of all the cash that was in it. Oh and some drunk guy tried to break our door in but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt as I think he was just really pissed. The police did turn up for that after I'd made the second scared phone call.

I have since moved down to Greater London (I am from the south originally) and have found all my neighbours very welcoming and I also fully believe that local people here would also intervene if they saw someone in trouble. But I now live in a quite a settled area with a low level transitory population and a strong community feel. Some areas are good, some bad, most are in-between and you can say that for both countries. I think I just wasn't suited to the far north!

'I think the sense of community idea, plus the identity thing could be near to the mark.'

The relatively small size of our cities, plus the weather, could be near to the mark.

I'm also pretty convinced by the Glaswegian police being better riot trained and generally not hampered by issues of race sensitivity when carrying it out.

There probably is some merit in the 'Ahm Scorettish' identity thing keeping a few people out of gangs on the grounds that people here don't have to scrabble around for identity. But if you were to look into the same demographic in Scotland as the rioting counterparts in London, I don't think Scottish identity would keep them out of robbing JD Sport if they believed they could get away with it.