Depraved or deprived: What lies behind these riots, and why aren't they happening in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland?

[Solopower]

I've been reading the threads on the riots and I wondered if we needed one on the causes.

People's ideas seem to range from thinking the rioters are just opportunistic criminals to socially and culturally disadvantaged youngsters.

But why isn't there any rioting in Scotland, for example, where there are pockets of extreme social deprivation?

Zoe Williams' article on the psychology of looting is worth reading, imo:
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/09/uk-riots-psychology-of-looting?CMP=twt_gu

Ephiny I think that's true, but not exclusively of those particular groups of young people but of young people more generally, it seems to me.

here's the link for those girls bragging about what fun the riots were
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

And where I live, a good percentage of the young people (of all races) talk in a certain way that people perceive to be 'gangsta'.

Oh Jamaica I was under the impression it was more white teenge skin-heads!

I can see the pattern in what you describe - material stuff standing in for success and group/gang identity in the absence of strong family life.

I guess you can't really generalise about looters' backgrounds, such a mixture

Ephiny I actually agree with what you're saying. But it is very hard and they are not taught to do that by teachers. I'm not saying that everything is justified or what they believe is right, I am just stating what I think they believe (from my experience).

Also I would like to bring up that individualism is strongly taught in schools in the UK which I think contributes to this kind of culture.

thrill-seeking, the first time they can make up one ultimate gang to get one over the police, the perceived enemy

sheer freedom of criminality in such large numbers it is uncontrollable; diffusion of responsibility, quite primal in survival of the fittest ie. the most brave/daring/fastest runners/ inventive/alert/
something to 'do'
being a part of history

getting a bit of loot is just a happy side-benefit

I really don't think what is taught in schools has a profound impact on teen behaviour, despite what politicians and writers of citizenship curiculums might wish. Agree tho that there is a general climate of individualism. Haven't got any great suggestions how to counter it tho

perceived benefits
ie. status increased + loot + fun

far outway tiny risks of capture

ie. in police custody punishments perceived to be small, and also raise staus

this idiotic encrypted messaging blackberry stuff has to be stopped, surely it's a terrorism threat too

Yes it's a good point about the poverty of mind etc. I grew up fairly poor (certainly no designer trainers or expensive gadgets) - but we had a houseful of (second-hand) books plus a local library 10 minutes walk away, I was always reading and writing stories or drawing pictures, we had free music lessons and instrument hire through school, we went to church, did country walks, fruit picking, bird spotting, identifying trees etc, my dad took us to (cheap) classical music concerts put on by students at the university, Radio 3 was often on in the evenings (we had no TV in the early years), it always went without saying that we'd go to university and hopefully have full and interesting lives. So when I look back, quite a 'rich' upbringing in terms of the cultural and intellectual and spiritual side.

I would think many of these kids have nothing like that, and don't see any point to life other than grabbing money/stuff/status for themselves by any means possible. It's a kind of poverty that unfortunately wouldn't be solved by throwing money at it. It's very sad and I admit I don't really know where to start with suggestions for what to do about it. My parents were not perfect by a long long way but I'm increasingly realising they could have been a lot lot worse.

Ephiny sounds a wholesome and very culurally rich upbringing! Probably the opposite end of the spectrum from most looters... hmm,

WhipMe I heard that Blackberry suspended the messaging service yesterday

blimey I didnt hear they'd suspended.

I havent read all of the posts so not sure if this has been posted already....I believe the reason the streets of Scotland havent been rioted is because there was no religion/football/sectarianism (SP?) involved. The main social problems I have experienced esp in Glasgow are all to do with what religion you are and what football team you support. I would also say that the Strathclyde Police are prob the most experienced police force (in GB) outside of the Met to deal with violent crowds and dispersing them safely. So any trouble would be nipped in the bud immediately, hence their arrest of a Facebook twat on Tues.

Angry rap music

oh no my bad Whipme, they haven't suspended - I was listening to rumour!

this isnt the 80s.. what a joke.. then there was a point where I live (bham) the police were known for racism

now these idiots are rioting because they can.. simple as... the police hung back for whatever reason.. because there wasnt enough of them or to prove a point about cuts to the conservatives.. either way they were totally outnumbered by these criminals...

before i get jumped on... i grew up in Handsworth bham in the 80s, i had a black boyfriend and lots of black friends and the police were racist, no dought.. things are a whole lot better now....

now its totally different.. these attacks are actually on working class people and busineses.. disgusting... if these people are so deprived how come they have blackberrys????

my elderly working class parents are often subject to abuse from this underclass in the village they live in... the police say they are powerless to deal with then because they are underage!!!!

the apologists for these bastards dont live with this day in and day, out like the rest of us, so its easy for them to take the side of the 'misunderstood hoodies'....

crap this isnt a race issue or a class issue.. its simply a case of the criminals against the hard working law abiding majority...

please dont apologise for them.. its an insult to all the working class people who have lost their homes and businesses since saturday... how about we talk about them for a change aye?????

Thebody, I don't see it as people apologising for the rioters or trying to excuse them in any way. As you say, there's no excuse for what they've done. We just want to understand what's going on - so we can stop it happening again. Imo, people don't just smash in shop windows for no reason (or because they can). Is it criminality, pure and simple (if such a thing exists!) or are there any underlying social/cultural/moral causes (not excuses)?

I watched the news on Channel 4 tonight, and it does look as if the nature of the violence is changing from opportunistic looting into something more recognisably political - the media are picking up more on racial motives and anti-police feelings.

Whats behind the riots?

Thieving, low life bastards !

I don't think this is a race or class issue, more an issue of people not looking out for each other and not being responsible for each other or their communities.
I live in a working class multicultural area. But, we are a small village and everyone knows each other.
About a year ago my nephew (who can be a little snot and was 12) played up big time in our local coop - he was escorted home by one of his grandfathers friends. Whilst being really told off. Fred (fil friend) also informed my sil that he thought Nephew should help out at the local old people's tea dance for a couple of weeks and join the rugby club. (fred trains the colts) its been the making of him. In my opinion every one needs to look out for each other and their communties. But then maybe I am naive.

Ephiny, I completely agree with you. I have thought since Sunday that these riots are partly because come people have no "soul" any more. They are culturally impoverished - there is nothing more in life than stuff and the acquisition of that stuff. People have lost religion so there is no fear of going to hell any more - that has been true for a long time, but the last twenty years have seen such marching, relentless, unbridled consumerism that is has become the main point in life for many people. And this has run at the same time as a whole section of society becoming completely disincentivised (is there such a word?) to work, because the what was originally conceived as a safety net i.e. benefits have become all encompassing. Some families have not worked at all for a couple of generations. The kids have no concept of what actually earning your living means. And so there are thousands of children whose mums gave birth to them when they were just children themselves.

It's going to be a very courageous politician who addresses these points, and I don't think the current crop have got the balls.

I was born & raised in Scotland and now live in England.

I agree with a lot of posters' theories and would add that there does seem to be a difference in policing. There is more 'zero tolerance' in Scotland - where else are you fined £50 on the spot for dropping a cigarette end in the street?

And have you seen Scottish policemen? I think it's a prerequisite to be built like a brick shithouse to become one. They have presence.

When my Scottish friend & I spent a day in London, we were in a residential area and she was adamant we should phone the police because someone's burglar alarm was ringing. Scotland (and Ireland and Wales too I'm sure) seems to have a stronger sense of community and less transient populations.

And I do blame the parents. Why should it be up to schools to teach social responsibility as one poster suggested?

I think it is pretty obvious. Scotland has a devolved parliament and has never had a right wing government.

Right wing politics doesn't work and it doesn't provide stability. Why the fuck people can't see that, I do not know. Even if you don't give a stuff about the poor, for a stable society they need to be protected.

naught - it really does 'take a village to raise a child'. Fred sounds lovely.

But the last government didn't work did it addressbook? What will work?