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Enfield riots?

916 replies

Empusa · 07/08/2011 18:21

Just seen on Twitter and in a few articles like this, that there are meant to be plans for a riot in Enfield tonight and riot police are in the town centre?

Used to live there, and got family there (luckily a fair distance from the centre), but fucking hell! What the hell is going on?

OP posts:
maureenteeth · 09/08/2011 12:40

Schools to re-open? My colleague has been told to come back from her holiday in France, she has only managed 2 days of her booked 3 weeks, as the school is re-opening.
Apparently Michael Gove is working with the unions to start Autumn term early.
Where does that leave me? People do not understand the stress us teachers are under as it is :(

noddyholder · 09/08/2011 12:41

Lots of FB messages etc implying this is the most exciting night of their lives. This shows that it is not political but a breakdown in social values. My ds and his mates often witter on about boredom but this behaviour is out of control

noddyholder · 09/08/2011 12:42

why would schools re open?

Cocoflower · 09/08/2011 12:46

Noddy is right. Of course it social not political. How many 14 year olds are worried they are not yet meeting their dream lifestyle (oh and ironic how most of the texts to each other are on blackberry phones, huh?)

And to copy and paste this earlier on the thread to highlight the issue:

rIf you're down for making money, we're about to go hard in east london tonight, yes tonight!! I don't care what ends you're from, we're personally inviting you to come and get it in. Police have taken the piss for too long and to be honest I don't know why its taken so long for us make this happen. We need a minimum of 200 hungry people. We're not broke, but who says no to free stuff. Doesn't matter if the police arrive cos we'll just chase dem out because as you've seen on the news, they are NOT ON DIS TING. Finders keepers and we all look after each other so if you see someone getting grab by feds then make sure we help stamp out that fuking PIG*. M.O.B money over bobbies =D broadcast this to everyone you know and let's get paid!! RE SEND. LONDON MESSAGE" - Blackberry messenger

So there we go. Its about greed and a sense of hatred for the police/ authority with clearly implied violence.

AbsDuCroissant · 09/08/2011 12:54

this has been going on for ages though, on a smaller scale - lots of young people (who are fortunately not representative of the whole, but very obvious) who have no respect for anyone or anything, who can't be told no. Teachers have no power against them, the police have no power against them, and they know this. How many reports are there of things like happy slapping? Random acts of violence "for fun", because they don't fear, and don't think through, any consequences.

TandB · 09/08/2011 13:01

I am in a cafe near the court in Clapham and there is a poor bloke next to me whose little shop has been trashed. And one another lady came in to talk to him - her shop has had all its windows smashed.

They both sound in absolute despair.

marriedinwhite · 09/08/2011 13:03

The gang culture in certain parts of London is totally out of hand and needs to be dealt with. It has more to do with the supply of illegal drugs than with disenfranchisement and it is the suppliers and dealers who are holding these areas to ransom and creating dysfunctional environments that breeds the gang cultures. The gangs are not in fear of authority they are in fear of the reactions of those who want them to react against authority. Often the community members know who shoots and kills but are too scared to tell the truth - not scared of the police but scared of those who run the gangs and run the activities behind the gangs.

Most of the young people involved in the looting are vulnerable and have been failed by many many agencies and by their parents, often their fathers, because in these communities fathers are not present to provide materially or to provide emotional support and to be active role models and this situation has been perpetuated now since the 1960's and has become worse and worse over time. We now are dealing with the third or fourth generation where family units do not exist, where recreational drugs are the norm and part of the culture, where if people work it is the women - who on one level are exceptional moral and capable, where benefits are expected as an entitlement, where housing is expected as an entitlement.

The situation has been compounded in London by very liberal views within education. I recall as a governor of a failing school in South London listening to the deputy head tell us it was wrong to tell these children that taking drugs was wrong because that would undermine the beliefs of the parents; likewise it was wrong to encourage them to get jobs and become financially independent because that too would undermine the parents. I also recall chairing the exclusion panel on one occasion and having to overturn the decision to permanently exclude a child who brandished a broken bottle at a teacher on the advice of the local authority because procedure had not been correctly followed. I did so with great reluctance and with a significant warning that the LA adviser and not me would be responsible for the consequences.

My own daughter attends a sought after London Comp. where last term the head sent out a letter congratulating the children (y7 - y9) on their superb conduct on school trips during an activity week. One of the children had been involved in a fight on a ferry. A head teacher thought it was right to congratulate the entire group for good behaviour - that is wholly indicative of the complete withdrawal from normal and acceptable standards of behaviour within the education system. When I was at school that child would have been at least temporarily excluded and under no circumstances would their have been congratulations for excellent behaviour that made the school proud.

I live in London cheek by jowl with these communities. I have only ever found the police in London to be helpful, respectful, sensible people, many of whom wish to work on behalf of these communities rather than against them.

As a society we have to work together to say enough is enough. There are basic standards of acceptable behaviour. It includes accepting authority, it includes following rules, it includes not engaging in criminal activity, it includes accepting consequences, it includes working, it includes being reliable, it includes being honest, it includes being financially independent before starting families, it includes fathers as well as mother accepting responsibilty for the financial and social well being of their offspring, it includes keeping mouths shut and swallowing the urge to answer back, it includes self reliance - by no means an exhaustive list.

The army should not be introduced to the streets but perhaps they are required to advise educational establishments for those who cannot be taught any longer in traditional schools and where teachers and other children should not have to have to deal with them on a daily basis. Establishments where discipline can be instilled - a half way house perhaps between school and prison. Something has to be done and many of these youths know exactly what they are doing - they know they are deviant, they know they are thieves, they know they are violent - they need to stop thinking they are smart and clever and cool. They are not.

GypsyMoth · 09/08/2011 13:03

kungfu.......those are the ones i really feel for. just hope to god the insurance companies are on the ball so businesses can get back up and running....if there is any incentive left for these poor people

Goldenbear · 09/08/2011 13:07

My Dad lives in Peckham, is 66 was returning from visiting me and got punched in the face and threatened by a rioter who had just smashed a Shop window. A girl told him to go home or he would be stabbed! Nothing was done by the Police. My Dad said it was very much a free for all as evidently there were no consequences for any of this behaviour!

TandB · 09/08/2011 13:10

My faith in humanity just got a little boost - there are a couple of council contractors at the table next to the shopkeeper. They just offered to go and help him clean out his shop as they have been told they can't get access to where they need to be for another couple of hours.

He has also found something to joke about - his shop sells little safes among other things and they have all been stolen - presumably some pillocks thought they were all full of cash!

samstown · 09/08/2011 13:12

Last night on Sky News, Mark Stone asked a young girl why she was stealing and she said 'we're getting our taxes back'. Yes, a great 'political statement' there from the disaffected yoof.

Sooooo, you have never used the NHS or been to school or had your bins collected or used any form of transport or road or used any public service ever. And therefore you are so pissed off with contributing to society that you are going to take it all back in the form of a shiny new television Hmm

These young people are angry - yes angry that they dont necessarily get everything handed to them on a plate. What about the poor bastards that have lived in these communities all their lives, having truly worked their arses off only to have it all destroyed in one night. Where are their 'protests'?

BulletWithAName · 09/08/2011 13:14

Omg Goldenbear is your dad alright?

Birdland · 09/08/2011 13:15

How people on this thread can say that a breakdown in social values is not a political issue is beyond me

working9while5 · 09/08/2011 13:19

Marriedinwhite, I would be in favour of army personnel being involved in schools and American style "boot camps" to instil discipline etc, we have very little of this here and I do totally accept what you are saying about the "softly softly approach". It is possibly worse in some ways here than in "da Ghetto" in America because there poverty is something everyone at least aspires to escape, there is an issue about rights vs responsibilities here in a big way.

I think it is very telling how little respect there is even within families, people are saying but what are the parents doing when even a totally right-thinking and moral single parent has so little control and the masses are feral and have more influence.

I do think there is poverty etc and I do think there is disenfranchisement but the gap between what you can get through living criminally and what you can get through living morally is becoming greater all the time, and there is so little guidance in these kids' homes etc. But what can you do? Sure Start etc was a total failure, it took the point of view that people would want to change when many don't. It was more or less about peddling middle class values to people with slim prospects for social mobility - I used to work in a centre, all these poor families being told that they needed to buy butter for their children's brain development etc, like that was really tackling the issues? Middle class middle aged women showing people involved in serious drugs and prostitution etc how to make sodding home-made play doh. It was supposed to be about training people to make a difference in their own community but so little was led by the community, it was all just "cut and paste" centralised socialist value with no true involvement in many areas, just a lot of highly paid people telling people with nothing how to be.

There's no industry in this country, no manufacturing, no jobs where people don't have to have literacy and "communication skills" aka speaking standard English to get ahead. Even taxi drivers have to do NVQs these days. The only "jobs" you can get without meeting these criteria are criminal.

The Big Society idea might have worked if when there was money, people were incentivised to take pride in their communities and really work to develop them but now it is being asked of people when they have had nothing but "rights" for an eternity and have no investment in their communities. There is no responsibility, no respect for authority, nothing.. but with our current financial situation, what on God's earth do you do? There isn't money to set up military academies or even to detain these people. There are just so many levels on which this is uncontrollable and it starts with these communities being cut off from government and society in the real sense, of having no investment or pride in their communities: it's the "me generation".

To me, that's still political. I don't know the answer though. Or even one of them.

buggerlugs82 · 09/08/2011 13:20

This reply has been withdrawn

This post has been withdrawn due to privacy concerns.

marriedinwhite · 09/08/2011 13:21

Oh and lest I forget. I go back to work next week. My DC were booked onto courses locally and were going to travel to and from them independently. We are very close to Clapham. The courses have been cancelled, so more businesses suffering due to this - although I won't get a refund - and the DC are being sent to their elderly grandparents for two weeks.

working9while5 · 09/08/2011 13:22

And married in white, I know what you are saying about how we need to work together.... but I am always saying to dh that if he ever sees youths doing anything to stay well out of it because of all the incidences of people who have been killed for speaking up. There is very real fear of confronting these lawless teens...

Davida · 09/08/2011 13:22

I'm not saying that. I think it's about parenting and related issues but the government isn't directly responsible for it or in control of it whatever their political stance

You can't cure mass disillusionment that easily and it's not a new thing. It's been there all along.

there have been riots before. The politics is an excuse. The reason you and I are not out there joining in is at the heart of the root cause.

Why? we were brought up well and loved. We were not taught that our needs would never be met unless we stole.

The people out there have been taught otherwise.

IvyAndGold · 09/08/2011 13:23

DM just text to say five police vans have gone tearing into Birmingham city center, and DP's friend is on duty in Wolverhampton, place is full of police as there are so many 'hooded youths' loitering around. For fucks sake, surely it can't get any worse? :(

I don't want to be bringing up a child in this shit :(

BulletWithAName · 09/08/2011 13:24

The justice system will make an example of all those caught.

What 12 months inside and then out on good behaviour? They don't even punish murderers and paedophiles properly here, I doubt very much whether they'll be punishing these 'rioters' adequately.

samstown · 09/08/2011 13:25

Birdland, I think that there are political issues here, but I dont think the people doing the looting and rioting are necessarily trying to send a political message.

Marriedinwhite - some of my posts have come across as quite cross and angry because that it how I feel about what I am seeing at the moment - however, I agree with everything you have said and you have said it all very eloquently. I can particualrly relate to what you have said about the education system, working in education myself (and not even in a deprived area). Where did things start going so wrong?

working9while5 · 09/08/2011 13:25

And it's potentially a badge of honour to be sent down...

MrsMilton · 09/08/2011 13:26

I don't think this can ever be fixed, not in my lifetime anyway. Total breakdown of social codes and norms. Some of these people live like animals and have no concept of moral responsibility. They genuinely believe that they should be allowed to live as they please and by any means available to them. Broken families, single mothers raising teenage boys in communities where nobody works and everybody takes drugs and steals and listens to gangster rap and has an irrational hatred of authority based purely on the fact that figures of authority try to stop them doing what they want.

Decades of liberal mollycoddling, all about rights, nothing about responsibilites, live as you please, we'll never judge... well now we are very much reaping what we sowed.

I was literally weeping as I went to bed last night, ashamed and repulsed and frightened. My heart goes out to those caught up in it, I hope people can stay safe tonight.

Fascinating that even though it is so blatantly what people are saying and thinking in private, in public and on the news (and certainly on MN!) nobody mentions "black youths". And that is the whole problem. Untouchable, unmentionable, unaccountable.

Davida · 09/08/2011 13:28

what can we do with them but put them in prison?

It's like having a rescued pet dog or something, it's re-trainable but it will bite and be vicious while you try.

Tempting to just put it in a cage or put it to sleep. What else can you do if it's just not manageable, if you don't have the resources to train the thing?

Someone mentioned lack of fathering...I read somewhere about boys needing proper hands on fathering from about 7 to 14 and if they don't get it, they will always have a bit missing in their brains regarding discipline and stuff.

Maybe this is something to do with it...who knows. (single mother myself so genuinely wondering, and worrying)

working9while5 · 09/08/2011 13:29

Samstown, I work in education too... I don't know, I just don't know.

The easy answer is when corporal punishment went or when people started believing that there was always a diamond in the rough etc but it's not that straightforward, is it, there has been a gradual and sustained erosion of much of what kept us together as communities over the last few decades and education reflects that.. breakdown of families, benefit state etc. So, so many factors. Parents have hardly any control.

I do feel that the lack of potential employment is a major factor and how much any well-paid work has become a set of particular "transferable skills" that are largely related to communication and literacy, combined with a massive growth in the value placed on material goods.

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